【世事關心】美國對活摘器官態度的微妙變化及原因

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【新唐人2012年10月29日訊】世事關心(234)美國對活摘器官態度的微妙變化及原因:談中共活摘器官在美國政壇掀起的波瀾。(English Script Included Below)

Topic: US Attitude Towards Live Organ Harvesting of Prisoners of Conscience Undergone Subtle Changes, Why?

蕭茗:10月23號,在紐約舉行了第3場總統辯論。這場辯論的主題是外交政策。如何應對中國是其中重要一部分。但是,雙方的觀點都缺乏新意,無論在之前的競選活動中,雙方如何以對中國發表強硬言論的方式來贏得民意支持,我們看到,將來作為總統的兩人中的任何一位,在貿易和地緣政治方面,都將繼續和中國發展既合作又競爭的關係。這個態度其實無可厚非。但是,他們或許忽略或者無暇顧及的是,在他們眼中的那個正在崛起的中國,並不是一個固定和穩定的畫面。中共政權正在經歷前所未有的變局和壓力,在強力維持的政局穩定的畫面背後早已是分崩離析,火山爆發的前夜。而這個變局中一條至關重要的線索,如今已經悄悄延伸到了美國政府的面前。這條線索,不僅將對今後中國政局的變化產生深遠影響,也會在將來的某一時刻,強烈的作用於美國和美中關係。讓我們先從10月13號美國《福布斯》雜誌發表的一篇文章說起。

旁白:美國《福布斯》雜誌網站10月22日發表署名文章《今晚的辯論前,候選人務必要看的兩個視頻》。文章指出,在這個政治受到矚目的季節,中共領導人和他們在美國的代理人一直努力試圖平息美國對中國問題的焦慮。謠言滿天飛,許多臆測的目的是想把美國選民的注意力從真正的問題轉移開,這就是:美國不但越來越依賴於中國的金融,迅速失去美國的經濟主權,而且,更糟糕的是,中共的理念與任何一個重要的現代國家都遠遠相悖。機緣巧合,兩個剛剛公布的YouTube視頻,披露了美國沒有認識到的真實的中國。我們只能希望今晚大選辯論前奧巴馬和羅姆尼有時間來看看這兩個是視頻,我們今天談論的是其中的一個視頻:《Killed For Organs:China’s Secret State Transplant Business》為了器官而謀殺;中國政府秘密的器官移植生意。

蕭茗:這個視頻在總統最後一場辯論的前幾天出現,但是,辯論會上,雙方都沒有涉及「活摘器官」這個話題。這其實並不是很出人意料,我們看到一個現象。整個西方世界對於活摘器官的罪行和當年他們對待納粹德國屠殺猶太人的罪行從表現上看有很大的相似性。那就是對這種徹底的反人類罪行的反應的延遲性。當年主要的原因是西方世界不願意相信,也不敢相信有這樣的罪行。而今天的情況是否也是如此呢?我們還不能完全下這個結論。但是,歷史中確實有太多值得我們吸取的教訓。讓我們先把時鐘駁回68年,看看西方世界的延遲反應如何使600萬猶太人被屠殺的慘劇最終變成了現實。請雪莉為我們介紹一下。

雪莉:好的蕭茗。這段歷史讀起來確實讓人唏噓不已。早在1944年6月,就有一位從集中營裏逃出來的叫魯道夫弗爾巴的人首次向全世界披露了奧斯維辛納粹集中營的毒氣室和焚屍爐等駭人聽聞的大屠殺真相,同時向世人發出猶太人危在旦夕的警報。但因為事實過於殘酷血腥而遭到懷疑,當時並沒有引起西方社會的重視。

另外一位曾擔任波蘭外交官的楊.卡思基(Jan Karski)二戰期間也被關在納粹集中營中,並親眼目睹了大屠殺。後來,他逃了出來,輾轉來到了美國,並在波蘭大使的安排下與羅斯福總統身邊的一些猶太人高級幕僚會晤,希望說服他們相信納粹對波蘭猶太人做了什麽。卡思基到華盛頓之後的第一次晚餐就遇到了最高法院法官費利克斯.法蘭克福。

飯後,卡思基花了半小時,耐心地向法蘭克福解釋他在猶太人集中營所目睹的可怕細節,包括納粹利用毒氣室屠殺猶太人。

講完後,法蘭克福默默地從椅子上起來,來回踱了好一會兒步。最後說道,「像我這樣的人跟你這樣的人說話,必須是完全坦率的。所以我必須說:我不能夠相信你。」

也正是因為不相信會發生這樣的罪行,西方國家延遲了可以采取行動的時間。當美軍攻克波蘭,進入納粹集中營後,發現了堆積如山、來不及處理的屍體的時後,才發現弗爾巴的報告和卡思基所說的都是真實的。後世歷史學家評論說,假如當初人們相信了他們的話,幾百萬人猶太人就不會慘遭屠殺了。

蕭茗:謝謝雪莉。歷史的相似性有時候讓我們感嘆有多少人真能從刻骨銘心的教訓中學到任何東西。但是,我今天採訪的人是一個例外。Ethan Gutmann是一位美國作家,資深的調查記者,同時也是一位中國問題專家。今天他要講述自己從接觸到介入調查活摘器官的經歷,以及活摘器官對美國,和美中關係的影響。Ethan Gutmann在9月4號美國國會的聽證會上和大卫.麦塔斯和大衛.喬高等人一起為活摘器官的指控做證。他自己也寫過多篇關於活摘器官的調查報告。其中有兩篇收錄在《國家器官》這本書中。下面首先聽一下他是怎麽介入活摘器官的調查的。

Ethan Gutmann:我真的是很意外的參與到此事中來。我已經確信一些大事發生了。法輪功學員在中國被壓制和迫害是一個重大新聞。但這一事件被很多媒體所忽略。所以我決定插手這此事,並開始做採訪。我有一些補助金。我開始採訪法輪功難民。正是在這期間我發現了讓人震驚的事情。當我開始採訪以前從未被採訪過的難民們時,很快我就注意到,好幾次他們順便提到了接受體檢。而這種體檢不是一種正常體檢。這種體檢只基於一件事,那就是體檢醫生尋找可以零售的器官。肝臟、腎臟、心臟和角膜。對角膜的檢測尤為驚人。因為醫生會花大量時間盯著他們的眼睛看並用光照射他們的眼睛。但醫生從來不問他們是否曾作過周邊視野檢測或者其它任何形式的視力檢測。也不詢問他們同視力有關的大腦功能是否有問題。此類問題一個也沒有問。體檢醫生唯一感興趣的是角膜的健康狀況,因為角膜可以被移植,但大腦卻無法被移植。我不得不承認,當我第一次聽到這時,我正在採訪一位有些年紀的法輪功學員。她被我惹得相當不愉快。她想:「為什麽我們談論這次體檢,我還有別的更重要的事情要告訴你。我對此(體檢)相當抗拒。我感到很神聖。」但我一直把她拉回到這次體檢上來。我之所以這樣做是因為,當她告訴我這次體檢的細節時,一股寒氣襲上我的脊背。我想:「上帝啊,這是真的!」這種感覺從那一刻起一直就沒有完全離開我。但對我來說,當時最重要的事是做一些獨立的調查。所以我走出去,盡我所能的把找到的證據編織成我自己的新聞故事。我找可以實際接觸的人進行採訪。我可以盯著他們的眼睛,來判斷其證據的真實性。而且我可以對所談內容有信心。所以,我採訪了很多難民。我採訪了曾在勞改系統中的50多名難民。

蕭茗:他們都是法輪功學員嗎?

Ethan Gutmann:是的,我採訪了50多個曾體驗過勞改制度的法輪功學員。我採訪過前警察、610辦公室成員和很多醫生。我還採訪了一些維吾爾人,特別是一些早在1997年就給維吾爾政治犯們做過體檢的醫生。這些體檢很明確和具體的是為活體摘取器官而做準備。

蕭茗:到現在為止,你認為你已經擁有足夠的證據來證明法輪功學員和其他良心犯的器官被活摘的事情確實存在嗎?

Ethan Gutmann:我是否擁有足夠的證據證明法輪功學員和其他良心犯例如維吾爾族人,西藏人和基督教家庭教會成員的器官被活摘的事情確實存在或者曾經存在過?絕對的,在我的頭腦裏這是毫無疑問的。證據是很有力的,並且一直在增加。我們不知道的是,儘管這是我努力想要調查出來的,是一個準確的數字,就是法輪功學員被活摘器官的數量。我認為要調查出來西藏人,維吾爾族人,和基督教家庭教派被活摘器官的人數是非常困難的,因為那個數字要小的多,很明顯,法輪功的器官佔器官交易中的大多數。

蕭茗:從2006年活摘器官被首次曝光到現在已經6年過去了。在這個過程中,據我們了解,美國政府和領導人曾經多次在正式和不正式的情況下被告知活摘器官的指控。一起來看一下。

旁白:2006年3月9號,蘇家屯集中營活摘法輪功學員器官的罪行首次被大紀元曝光,沈默了3個星期後,中共外交部發言人終於開口否認指控。並且高調邀請國際媒體去蘇家屯做所謂的調查。4月14日,美國駐華使領館的幾名官員在中共官員的帶領和引導下,對醫療中心及周圍的居民區進行了所謂的實地參觀。事後,美國使館的發言人表示他們沒有發現異常情況。

但是事態並沒有因為中共的否認和在中共帶領和監督下進行的所謂第3方調查所得出的結果而平息。更多的證據和證人持續不斷的出現。2006年5月,加拿大著名人權律師和檢查官大衛.麥塔斯以及大衛.喬高開始獨立調查法輪功學員被活摘器官的罪行,2006年7月,他們發表了第一篇調查報告,2007年一月,發表了第2篇報告。他們的結論是:對無辜的法輪功學員的活體器官摘除是真實的。2009年,在持續不斷的調查以及綜合了54類證據之後,大衛.麥塔斯和大衛.喬高出版了血腥的器官摘除一書。2012年,另一本書《國家器官》(State Organs)匯集了來自四大洲的醫學界等各界專家反映中共政權活摘器官現狀的論文,引起各界極大的關注。

值得一提的是,從2006年到現在,美國國務院多次收到法輪功學員提供的關於活摘器官調查的最新進展的介紹。而美國政府的態度,也在發生微妙的變化。

二零一一年六月,美國國務院更新了非移民簽證申請表DS-160,變更的內容包括新增加了六個關於「安全和背景信息」的問題,其中之一是:「你是否曾經直接參與強制移植人體器官或身體組織?」

2012年5月美國國會出爐的中國人權報告指出:對中共強制摘除法輪功學員器官的指控不斷,報告引述世界衛生組織專家的觀點說,中共軍方醫院可能涉入非法器官移植。

2012年2月,王立軍事件之後,據媒體報導,王立軍向美國領事館透露了有關活摘器官的黑幕。7月25日,在美國國務院民主,人權和勞工局的記者會上,有記者專門向助理國務卿Michael Posner提出了這個問題。

視頻
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/rm/2012/195498.htm

QUESTION: Yes, thank you. The U.S. State Department included organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners —
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: Can you just speak up a little bit?
QUESTION: Sorry. The U.S. State Department included organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in its Human Rights Report this year. Was that raised in the dialogue, and what was that response? What was their response?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: We did also raise – in the context of religious freedom and other kinds of discrimination, we did raise the issue of some of the Falun Gong representatives. And again, I’m not going to go into every back-and-forth, but it’s part of our discussion.
QUESTION: How – just a follow-up?
MS. NULAND: Follow-up on that one?
QUESTION: Yeah.
MS. NULAND: Go ahead.
QUESTION: Because I just wonder if you specifically talk about the organ harvesting, because we know, earlier this year, Wang Lijun, police chief, he went to the U.S. consulate in Chengdu, and so there’s evidence he’s deeply involved in the crimes like organ harvesting. So I’m wondering if he provided any useful material to the U.S. Government on that aspect, and so —
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: There’s no – we have plenty of our own information from our own Embassy and our own reporting, and we’ve relied on that for the discussions.
MS. NULAND: Thank you very much.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: Thanks, everybody.

一個多月後,9月12日下午,一場以「中共活體摘取宗教與政治異議人士的器官」為主題的聽證會在美國國會舉行。國會議員們表示,這個聽證會所討論的是正發生在這個星球上的一個最邪惡的罪行

10月4日,美國106位國會議員聯名要求美國政府公開包括可能從王立軍遞交給美國領事館資料在內的關於中國活摘法輪功器官的證據。

10月14號,美國華盛頓DC法輪大法佛學會向美國總統候選人奧巴馬和羅姆尼致信,要求他們在大選中公開提出關注中共活摘法輪功學員器官的指控。另外在雙方和選民見面的活動中,法輪功學員也多次親手向奧巴馬總統和羅姆尼遞交類似信件,羅姆尼的高級外交顧問約翰.博爾頓(John Bolton)表示,中國大陸法輪功學員被活摘器官是非常嚴重和關鍵的議題,美國需直面這一議題,捍衛和堅守美國的基本價值。

但是,迄今為止,美國政府並沒有在公開場合直接向中共政權提出活摘器官的指控,美國主流媒體對此也鮮有報導。

蕭茗:在王立軍事件出來之後,華盛頓燈塔報報導了王立軍向美國領館紕漏了活摘器官的黑幕,雖然這一消息沒有得到進一步的證實,但是,從上述美國政府態度的微妙變化上,分析家表示這一消息很可能不是空穴來風。下面是Ethan Gutmann對這一事件的分析以及更深層的美國政府對活摘器官指控態度的解讀。首先來聽一下他對我們上文提到的106位美國國會議員簽署的關於活摘器官的聯名信的看法

Ethan Gutmann:雖然有人持懷疑態度,一封「親愛同事信」已經在美國國會山流傳開來。(註:國會議員們用此種信件來讓其他議員們關注此事件。) 這表明,很多人都認為國務院已經知曉此事。我知道他們知道(活摘的事)嗎?不,我當然不知道。我沒有辦法真正對此發表評論。我們所能做的只是猜測。國務院為什麽不對此做出任何表示?我認為答案是很明顯的。這是選舉時期。

蕭茗:這是選舉時期?

Ethan Gutmann:是的,奧巴馬政府迫切希望能重新當選。因此他們避免做任何事情來讓中國領導層惱羞成怒。因為他們會在例如經濟等方面進行報復。這對美國股市可能造成很大影響。

蕭茗:說到這一點。活摘器官的罪行已被曝光了六年。奧巴馬政府和布什政府都被定期告知此事的進展。如果我們認為他們因今年是選舉年而不想激怒中共。那以前又如何?他們也沒有做任何事。

Ethan Gutmann:這是一個很好的問題,很重要的觀點。我是說,如果美國國務院日前從王立軍處獲得了一些信息。現在已有了這樣的跡象。因為國務院在內部文件和報告中第一次提到(活摘)這件事情。他們第一次提到了這一問題。當他們原先作中國的國家報告時,他們從來沒有提過從政治犯、宗教犯和良心犯身上摘取器官。這是他們第一次提到此事。這對我來說是一個信號。他們可能對此知道不少事,甚至可能比我們還多。我們指的是我、大衛•喬高和大衛•麥塔斯等人。

蕭茗:你說他們知道這些是因為王立軍?

Ethan Gutmann:是的,我的猜測是他們因為王立軍而對此事了解更多。可能他們在中國政府內就有一些其他深層信息源。但是他們現在會出來宣布此事嗎?不,他們不會,因為選舉在即。因為他們害怕任何來自中國的報復。這將導致市場的不穩定。經濟是奧巴馬總統的軟肋。我認為你指出剛剛指出的事情是真實的。你說,布什政府(在制止活摘問題上)也所作甚少。他們有兩年的時間來做一些事情。這是一件很有意思的事。因為布什政府對中國人權狀況有著非常濃厚的興趣。事實上,我記得(布什政府態度)的變化。我記得在北京的時候,當布什剛上臺時(和上幾任美國總統相比之下)的不同。美國駐華大使在商務會議開始之前總要先作一番演講。我們有一次出席了由美國商會組織的一個大型商務會議,來討論在中國的各種商機。布什上臺後,美國駐華大使會在會議開始前談論正在發生著的可怕人權侵犯事例。事情慢慢發生了變化。問題是雙重的。一個是布什非常執著於中國家庭教會問題。這是他特別感興趣的問題。他傾向於為家庭教會基督徒們創造一個「辛德勒名單效應」,而且他做的非常成功。另一方面,當我所敬愛的王文怡在白宮玫瑰園向胡錦濤和布什發出強烈抗議並舉起一面橫幅的時候,我認為布什被大大得罪了。我想他不喜歡這樣的被擾亂。這並沒有幫助更好的解決(活摘)這件事情。盡管如此,我捍衛她這樣做的權利。不過,我認為此事的政治影響是這樣的。奧巴馬上臺後,沒有捍衛中國地下教會教徒們。美國國務院並沒有真正捍衛地下教會議題。我所看到的他們對法輪功和反迫害的唯一興趣是在互聯網上。因為他們試圖將全球互聯網自由變成一個真正的重要議題。我們認為他們把錢投入全球互聯網自由倡議這個項目中,而且希拉裏•克林頓也留下了她的印記。但問題是,只有很少的錢被發放給了能夠真正做事的人。全球網絡自由聯盟,基本上由法輪功學員們組成。他們想出了各種方法來突破中國和伊朗的防火牆,以及地球上所有其他的防火墻,因為前兩個是最難被攻破的。我認為奧巴馬政府曾嘗試在這方面做出一些努力。但對於活體摘取器官一事,我認為甚至在四年前,奧巴馬政府就非常關注從中國借錢以及不同中國進入貿易戰等等。他們並不想做出任何會擾亂國際經濟體系的事。這可能是主要的制約因素,並可能將繼續作為主要的制約因素。即使羅姆尼今後上臺,它可能也會是。對於奧巴馬政府於第二任期內會突然開始就活摘器官問題而采取行動,我沒有太多的信心。

蕭茗:你認為有一天,活體摘取器官的罪行將最終大白於天下?如果是的話,在中國會發生什麽事?美國會發生什麽?

Ethan Gutmann:這是一個非常好的問題。我就這個問題考慮過很多次了。會發生什麽?真相會最終大白於天下嗎?我本質上在某些方面有憤世嫉俗和悲觀的傾向。我的假設是,在中國已經沒有一個(有關活摘的)中央檔案了。不會有一個文件上說,我們需要有一個對法輪功問題的最終解決方案。我所收集到的證據表明,甚至在鎮壓法輪功學員之前,活體摘取政治犯和宗教犯器官就於1997年在維吾爾人身上開始了。我們將會找到一個文件,上面說:「讓我們用活摘器官的方式消滅法輪功學員」嗎?不會,我不認為有這樣的文件。我相信(活摘)維吾爾人的先例已經設定好了。我相信很多醫院,尤其是在鄧小平下令(向錢看)之後的軍隊醫院,一直是創業性的。他們抓住這一「商機」。他們看到的(活摘器官)賺取暴利的可能性。同時我認為,中共政府允許這種事情發生。我相信,周永康等人允許它們發生。我認為,薄熙來等人直接參與此事。我相信很明顯的像王立軍一樣的人直接行兇。溫家寶,他知道這件事嗎?我不認為他會不知道。當然,他心知肚明。整個黨中央知道活摘這件事情。他們在一定程度上必須是知情的。他們明確知道嗎?(被活摘的)人數、手術執行地點,諸如此類的事情,他們明確知道嗎?不,他們可能不知道。會有醫生們可以準確證明被活摘人數嗎?或許不會,或者非常不容易。但同時,我認為身在西方的中國難民、異見人士、身在中國或海外的法輪功學員們將(活摘)這個消息和事實傳播開來是至關重要的。如果我能為此提供任何的幫助,我是義不容辭的。但我不能預測未來。我認為這是一個定時炸彈,非常爆炸性的問題。許多共產黨的領導人認識到,此事肯定有能力摧毀中國共產黨。

蕭茗:因為時間關係,對Ethan Gutmann的採訪我們只能在這裏放這麽多。更多精彩的採訪內容可以在新唐人網站的英文版看到。面對活摘器官這樣超越了邪惡底線的罪惡,可能任何人都會有一定的心理璋礙,也許是因為太血腥,所以一般人不敢也不願去觸及,也許是因為爭議太大,令人難以致信,所以有些政治家們不願在這個問題上輕易表明態度,也許,有些國家包括美國在內,認為中共會因此罪惡的曝光而崩潰,產生的動蕩會影響到美國,所以遲遲不願曝光。但是無論有千種萬種借口,其實這件事情的出現最終衡量的是很簡單的事情,就是你的良知是否還能主導你,讓你做出一個正確的選擇。而這個選擇,在這個歷史的關頭,無論是對一個個人,一個團體,還是一個國家,都是至關重要的。

US Attitude Towards Live Organ Harvesting of Prisoners of Conscience Undergone Subtle Changes, Why?

Simone Gao: The 3rd presidential debate was held in New York on October 23. The theme of the debate is foreign policy with a portion devoted to US-China relations
Neither candidate discussed any new solutions to the mounting problems with China.
Although during the campaign, both sides have had tough talks about China, while gaining the support of public opinion. We can see that, when elected either candidate will continue to develop a cooperative and competitive relationship with China in trade and geopolitical aspects.

This attitude is understandable, however, they may have ignored or been too busy to consider China’s rising lack of stability. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is experiencing unprecedented challenges and pressures and is falling apart behind the scenes. The truth is their professed strength and political stability is more like a volcano about to erupt.

Meanwhile, an important clue has presented itself to bothcandidates and can no longer be hidden or ignored. This clue not only has the potential to affect the political changes in China now and in the future, but at some point it will also play a strong role in the US-China relations. Let’s start with an article published by Forbes Magazine, on October 22.

Voiceover: On October 22, the U.S. “Forbes" magazine website published; Before tonight’s debate, the candidates must look at the two videos. The article pointed out that in this season of political attention, the CCP leaders and their agents in the United States constantly try to quell the anxiety of the United States regarding China.
Rumors are flying. The purpose of that is to divert American voters’ attention from the real problems, which is: the United States has not only become increasingly dependent on China for finance and rapidly losing economic sovereignty of the United States, and, worse, the CCP’s philosophy is far contrary to any important modern state. By chance, the two ‘just released’ YouTube videos, disclose that the United States does not recognize the real China. We can only hope that before the election debate tonight, Obama and Romney will view these two videos, What we are talking about today is one of the videos: Killed For Organs: China’s Secret State Transplant Business

Simone Gao: This video appeared a few days before the final debate, however, neither side addressed the topic of “Organ Harvesting." In fact, this is not very surprising.

We have seen precedent throughout the West when they delayed responding toward the holocaust, a most horrific crime against humanity

The West failed to respond to the Holocaust report largely because it did not want or dare to believe that such crimes existed. Do we face the same situation today? We cannot really reach such a conclusion yet. However, we have learned so much from history.

Let us first turn back the clock 68 years to recall some important exchanges between two parties, an annotation on how the non-action of the west facilitated the Holocaust.
Sherry has the story.

Sherry: Yes, Simone. This page of history is very heart-wrenching. Early in June 1944, there was a prisoner Rudolf Vrba, who had Escaped from a camp and disclosed to the world for the first time; the shocking truth of the Holocaust and the gas chambers and crematoria in Nazi concentration camps. He warned the world of the Jew’s plight. Unfortunately, it was too brutal and bloody to attract the attention of Western society at that time.

In addition, a Polish diplomat Jan Karski during World War II was in a Nazi concentration camp and witnessed the massacre. Later, he escaped and ended up in the United States. Under the Arrangement of the Polish Ambassador, he met with President Roosevelt’s senior Jewish aides. He hoped to convince them of what the Nazis were doing to the Jews in Poland. Karski went to Washington and met with Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurt.

Karski spent half an hour patiently explaining to Frankfurt the horrible details he witnessed, including Jews being held captive in concentration camps and the Nazi’s using gas chambers to slaughter them.

After hearing Karski’s story, Frankfurt silently got up from his chair, paced back and forth for a moment, and said, “People like me must be completely frank to people like you. Thus, I must say that I cannot believe you." At that time, the Polish Ambassador jumped up from his seat and cried: “How can you call him a liar! Behind him
is the credibility of our government, do you know who he is! “

Frankfurt then said: “Mr. Ambassador, I did not say this young man was lying. I’m just saying I cannot believe what he told me. There is a difference."

Precisely because these crimes were too difficult to believe the Western countries delayed in their response. Ultimately it led to the murder of six million Jews. Later, when the U.S. military attacked Poland and entered Nazi concentration camps, they found bodies piled-high which had not yet been disposed of. They found both Vrba and Karski were telling the truth. Historians commented later that if people had believed these reports, the fate of the Jews would have been quite different and millions of Jews would not have been slaughtered.

Simone Gao: Thank you Sherry. Sometimes, the resemblance of history challenges the belief that people are able to learn real lessons from heart-wrenching mistakes. However, there are exceptions. Ethan Gutmann is an American author, a senior investigative journalist and a China expert. Today, he will share his story on how he stepped into organ harvesting investigation, and his insight on how this issue will impact China and America. At the U.S. Congressional hearing held on September 4, Mr. Gutmann testified about the allegations of the Chinese regime’s organ harvesting. He wrote extensively on this subject over the years. Two of his artiles are included in the book “State Organ”. Now, let’s first hear how he got involved in the organ harvesting investigation.

Ethan Gutmann: I really got involved in this by accident, in a way. I was already convinced that something major had happened. There was a major story there, in terms of Falun Gong practitioners being repressed and persecuted in China. And this is a story that has been ignored by a lot of the media. So I stepped in and started doing interviews. I had some grant money. I started doing interviews with Falun Gong refugees. And that’s where the surprise came. Because very quickly, when I first started talking to refugees, who had never been interviewed before, several times in passing, they would mention a physical exam. And the physical exam was not a normal physical. It was a physical based on only one thing, which was looking at what might determine their retail organs, organs that could be sold. Livers, kidneys, hearts and corneas. Particularly the corneas were very striking, because the doctor would spend a lot of time staring and shining a light into their eyes. But he would never ask if they did a test, a peripheral vision test or if they did any sort of test of the actual sight, or the ability of the brain functions surrounding the sight. There was nothing. The only interest was in the health of the corneas, because those can be transplanted, but the brain cannot be. I have to admit that when I first heard of this, I was literally in a situation, where it was a somewhat elderly Falun Gong practitioner. She got sort of irritated by me. She thought, “why are we talking about this exam, I have other things to tell you. They are much more important. I was quite resistant. I felt spiritually.” I kept pulling her back to this exam. The reason I did that was when she told me this, a chill went up my spine. I thought: “God, it is true!” That feeling has never completely left me from that moment. But, the important thing for me then, was to do something independent. I was to go out and put together my own story, the best I could, based on evidence that I can throw my arms around people, that I can actually touch, that I can look into their eyes and I could judge their veracity and have confidences in what I am talking about. So, I interviewed a lot of refugees. I interviewed over 50 refugees from the laogai (re-education through labor) system.

Simone Gao: And they are all Falun Gong practitioners?

Ethan Gutmann: Yes, about over 50 Falun Gong practitioners from the laogai system. I interviewed former policemen, members of the 610 Office and plenty of doctors. I also interviewed some Uyghurs, and specifically some doctors, who have been involved in testing Uyghurs and political prisoners back in 1997, clearly, specifically and explicitly for organ harvesting. And even a doctor, Amber Toti (may not be the correct spelling), who lives in London, actually performed a live organ harvesting operation on a prisoner.

Simone Gao: And is this interview with the doctor visiting London recent?
Ethan: He was not visiting London. He lives in London. The interview was fairly recent. I published my phone report about that in an article titled The Xinjiang Procedure. That article won a Sidney Award from the New York Times. It has been put into a congressional testimony.

Simone Gao: Six years have passed since live organ harvesting was first exposed in 2006. As far as we know, during this process, the U.S. government and its leaders have repeatedly been informed on both formal and informal occasions, of the live organ harvesting allegations. Let’s take a look together.

Voiceover: For the first time on March 9, 2006, The Epoch Times exposed the crimes of live organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners detained in the Sujiatun Concentration Camp. After three weeks of silence, a spokesman of the Chinese Foreign Ministry responded to deny the allegations, and invited international media to conduct an investigation at Sujiatun. On April 14, several officials of the U.S. Embassy, led by Communist Party officials, conducted a site visit of the local medical center and the surrounding neighborhoods. Afterwards, the U.S. Embassy spokesman reported they didn’t detect anything abnormal at Sujiatun.

However, the issue was not resolved as more evidence continued to emerge. In May 2006, a prominent Canadian human rights lawyer David Matas and former Canadian Parliament member and Attorney David Kilgour began an independent investigation of illegal organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners. In July 2006, they published their first investigative report. The second report was published in January 2007; and the conclusion proved these crimes to be true. In 2009, after a detailed and thorough investigation David Matas and David Kilgour published the book ‘BLOODY HARVEST’.
This year a second book was published entitled ‘State Organs.’ Medical experts and investigative journalists from around the world presented their discoveries of ‘this heinous crime against humanity.

Since the publishing of these two books the world is beginning to take notice and from 2006 to the present, the U.S. State Department has received several updates by Falun Gong practitioners on the latest developments of the live organ harvesting investigation. And the attitude of the U.S. government is undergoing subtle changes.

In June 2011, the U.S. State Department revised a non-immigrant visa application form DS-160. The changed contents included six new questions concerning security and background information. One of the questions read, “Have you ever been directly involved in the coercive transplantation of human organs or bodily tissue?" (Original words)

A report on China’s human rights was published by the U.S. State Department in May 2012. It pointed out that the allegations of the CCP’s forceful live organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners continue to this day. The report also cited an expert from the World Health Organization, alleging that some Chinese military hospitals might have been involved in illegal organ transplants.

After former Chongqing vice Mayor and Chief of Police Wang Lijun fled to the U.S. Consulate in Chengdu on February 2012, It was reported by the Washington Free Beacon that he revealed information on live organ harvesting to the consulate. On July 25, at a press conference held by the U.S. State Department, one journalist raised the issue to current Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, of the United States, Michael Posner.

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/rm/2012/195498.htm

QUESTION: Yes, thank you. The U.S. State Department included organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners —
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: Can you just speak up a little bit?
QUESTION: Sorry. The U.S. State Department included organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in its Human Rights Report this year. Was that raised in the dialogue, and what was that response? What was their response?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: We did also raise – in the context of religious freedom and other kinds of discrimination, we did raise the issue of some of the Falun Gong representatives. And again, I’m not going to go into every back-and-forth, but it’s part of our discussion.
QUESTION: How – just a follow-up?
MS. NULAND: Follow-up on that one?
QUESTION: Yeah.
MS. NULAND: Go ahead.
QUESTION: Because I just wonder if you specifically talk about the organ harvesting, because we know, earlier this year, Wang Lijun, police chief, he went to the U.S. consulate in Chengdu, and so there’s evidence he’s deeply involved in the crimes like organ harvesting. So I’m wondering if he provided any useful material to the U.S. Government on that aspect, and so —
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: There’s no – we have plenty of our own information from our own Embassy and our own reporting, and we’ve relied on that for the discussions.
MS. NULAND: Thank you very much.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY POSNER: Thanks, everybody.

A couple of months later, on September 12, a congressional hearing about organ harvesting of religious and political dissidents by the Chinese Communist Party was held on capitol hill. Some congressman said it was the “most monstrous crime” he could conceive of.

On October 4, 2012, 106 members of the U.S. Congress co-signed a petition, requesting the U.S. government to make public the evidence found with the live organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners, which may include the statement from Wang Lijun.

U.S. FALUN DAFA ASSOCIATION, Washington D.C. on October 14th sent a letter to U.S. President Barack Obama and his opponent Republican Governor Mitt Romney, requesting them to address this issue.
During the election campaign several Falun Gong practitioners have also personally handed letters to President Obama and Governor Romney. Romney’s senior diplomatic advisor John Bolton has recognized this situation as serious and critical and the U.S needs to confront this issue, in order to defend and uphold the nation’s fundamental values.

However, so far the U.S. government hasn’t officially raised the issue of organ harvesting to China, and the U.S media has also largely neglected the subject.

Simone Gao: Although the report about Wang Lijun leaking information on organ harvesting to the U.S consulate by the Washington Free Beacon hasn’t been further confirmed, A subtle change of attitudes toward organ harvesting by the US government tend to strengthen the belief that the State Department did know something. Next, we will get Ethan’s take on this issue, and let’s start with his read on the Dear Colleague Letter co-signed by 106 congressmen and is being circulated in the congress now.

Ethan Gutmann: There is a letter out there, though there is skepticism. There is a dear colleague letter that has been passed around on the Capitol Hill, that suggests that a lot of people share this view that the State Department knows something. Do I know that they know something? No, of course I don’t. There is no way to really comment on that. All we can do is to speculate. Why isn’t the State Department saying anything about it? I think that is obvious. This is the election.

Simone Gao: This is the election?

Ethan Gutmann: Yes, the Obama administration desperately wants to be re-elected. And at this point, to do anything, which would upset the Chinese leadership to the point where they would retaliate, in some way economically, for example, which could have a dramatic effect on the American stock market.

Simone Gao: Talking about that. This organ harvesting crime has been being exposed for six years. The Obama administration and the Bush administration have been both informed and briefed on this on a regular basis. If we think that they don’t want to infuriate China because this is an election year. How about before? They didn’t do anything, either.

Ethan Gutmann: That’s a great question and a great point. I am saying, right now, the real reason. I am saying, if the State Department recently learnt something from Wang Lijun. And there is a suggestion of that, because the State Department, for the first time, is talking about this in their own documents and their own reports. They’ve mentioned this issue for the first time. When they look at China’s overall country report, they never mentioned organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners and prisoners of conscience. This is the first time they mentioned it. That seems to me to be a signal that they probably do know quite a bit about this, probably more than we do. We refer to me, David Kilgour and David Matas and so forth.

Simone Gao: Are you saying they know more about this because of Wang Lijun?

Ethan Gutmann: Yes, my guess is that they know more about this because of Wang Lijun, and probably they may have some other deep sources within the Chinese government itself. But will they come out with that right now? No, they will not, because of the election, because they are afraid of any sort of Chinese retaliation, which would lead to the instability of the market, and President Obama is quite vulnerable to the charts of the economy. I think it is true, what you pointed out. You said that the Bush administration did very little about this. They had two years to do something about it. That’s a funny one, because the Bush administration did take a very strong interest in human rights in China. In fact, I remember the change. I remember in Beijing when they first came in that how different it was that the ambassador that used to be coming in to give this lecture before our business meetings. We had a big American Chamber of Commerce meeting about various business opportunities in China. After Bush came in, the ambassador would come in and start talking about all these terrible human rights abuses, which were taking place. So things have shifted. The problem is two-fold. One is that Bush was very wedded to the house Christian issue. That was his particular interest. He tended to create a “Schindler’s List effect” around house Christians, which was very successful. On the other hand, when Wang Wenyi, God bless her, I love her, exploded at Hu Jintao and George Bush at the Rose Garden and protested and held out a banner, I think Bush was very personally offended by that. I thought he didn’t like the disruption, and that did not help the matters. Having said that, I defend her right to do what she did. But I think that is the political effect. Obama came in, did not defend the house Christian issue. The State Department did not really defend the house Christian issue. The only interest that I can see they really took in Falun Gong and the persecution was through the Internet, because they tried to make a real issue out of the Global Internet Freedom. And we thought that they put money into this, the Global Internet Freedom Initiative, and Clinton put her imprint on that. The problem is there is little of the money actually went to the people that could really do something about that. The Global Internet Freedom Consortium, which is basically Falun Gong practitioners, who have figured out ways to break through, not only the Chinese firewall but the Iranian firewall and every other firewall on earth, because these two were the most difficult nuts to crack. I think that they did try to make some efforts in that area, but for the organ harvesting, I think that the feeling was, even four years ago, the Obama administration was very concerned about borrowing money from China, not going into a trade war with and so forth, and not getting into anything that would upset the international economic system. That may have been the main constraint and may continue to be the main constraint, even under Romney, if that is the case. I do not have a lot of confidence that the Obama administration’s second term will suddenly start taking action on organ harvesting.

Simone Gao: Do you think that one day, the crime of organ harvesting will finally be released and revealed to the entire world? And if so, what will happen to China and what will happen to the U.S.?

Ethan Gutmann: And that is a great question. I thought about this question so many times. What will happen? Will this ever be fully revealed to the world? I tend to be a kind of cynic or pessimist by nature in some ways. My assumption is that there is no central document anymore in China. There is no document that is saying we need to have a final solution for the Falun Gong problem. My evidence indicates that organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners began in 1997, even before the crackdown on the Falun Gong practitioners, with the Uyghurs. Are we ever going to find a document that says “let’s eliminate the Falun Gong practitioners by harvesting their organs”? No, I don’t think such a document exists. I believe that the precedent has already been set with the Uyghurs, and I believe that a lot of hospitals, particularly of course the military hospitals, which have always been entrepreneurial in the Chinese culture, ever since Deng Xiaoping ordered them to be. They jumped on this. They saw the possibility to make a lot of money. And at the same time, I believe that the government allowed it to happen. I believe that the people like Zhou Yongkang allowed it to happen. I believe that the people like Bo Xilai were directly involved. I believe that the ones like Wang Lijun obviously were. Wen Jiabao, did he know about it? I don’t see how he could not. Of course he did. The party Central Committee knew about this. The party central knew about this. They had to, in some level. Did they know explicitly? The numbers, where they were being performed, that sort of thing? No, they probably didn’t. But I don’t even believe they are sort of plausible in their abilities. Are there doctors that could establish the numbers? Probably not, not easily. And at the same time though, I think it is crucial for Chinese refugees, Chinese dissidents in the west, Chinese Falun Gong practitioners, who are overseas, and Chinese Falun Gong practitioners in China to get this message out and to get the facts out. If I can be of service in any way in doing that, it is obvious, that’s what I am here for. But I cannot predict the future. I would say that this is a time bomb, very explosive issue. Many in the communist leadership recognize that it certainly has the capability to destroy the Chinese Communist Party.

Simone Gao: We can only show a portion of Ethan’s interview due to program length. More interview content will be published on NTD TV’s English site. In the face of organ harvesting, a crime beyond evil, maybe anyone would have a barrier to a certain extent. Perhaps the entire issue is just too bloody, so most people do not dare or are willing to touch upon it. Perhaps there is too much controversy and inconceivability, so some politicians are reluctant to get close to this contentious issue; Perhaps, some governments, including the United States, think that in case the exposure would collapse the Chinese Communist Party’s rule, there would be great turmoil that will affect their own countries. And for this reason, they are very reluctant to expose the issue. However, regardless of the myriad of excuses, in reality, this issue ultimately only measures one simple thing. That is, if your conscience can still lead your actions, so that you make the right choice. And this choice, at this historical crossroad, is crucial to all individuals, groups and countries.

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