【世事關心】極左派是民主黨的靈魂嗎?

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【新唐人2019年03月05日訊】【世事關心極左派民主黨的靈魂嗎?

在美國,我們現在正在進行關於這個國家未來的熱烈討論,邊界安全、墮胎、毒癮、社會主義等等,很多時候這種爭論被簡化成了黨派之間的口號大戰,但這沒有意義。我相信蘇格拉底辯證法,這種正反雙方努力做出最佳論理的方式,是更好的方式,這也可能是我們作為一個國家,能在我們面對的問題上得出合理方案的唯一方式。我不是說骯髒的政治不存在,但是當論辯足夠深刻,真相便會顯現,這是蘇格拉底在2500年前做的事。在《世事關心》我們試圖追尋他的足跡。這一期節目,我採訪了Thomas B. Reston,《民主黨靈魂》一書的作者。

標題:極左派是民主黨的靈魂嗎?(二)

Title: Does the Far-Left Element of the Democrats Speak To the Soul of the Party?

這個國家又重新對墮胎展開爭論。紐約州的墮胎法律會對民主黨不利嗎?

The country has renewed the abortion debate. Will New York’s new abortion law backfire on the Democratic Party?

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我不知道這個怎麼說。這個很可能取決於你問誰這個問題。」

Tom Reston:“ I am not sure what to say about that. I think it probably depends on who you are asking.”

民主黨人能為晚期墮胎找到最終的合理依據嗎?

Can Democrats justify the ultimate rationale of late-term abortion?

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「所以這就變成了你是否認為母親選擇自己怎麽生活的權利高於嬰兒生存的權利。哪一個在道德上更重要呢?」

Simone: “So it comes down to whether you think a mother’s right to choose how to live her life is more important than the baby’s right to live. Which one is the moral imperative? ”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「人們會對這個案子感到不舒服。我認為民主黨人應該聽聽反對者的意見,認識到關於墮胎有合理的道德考量。」

Tom Reston: “People are uncomfortable with it. And I think Democrats ought to listen to their opponents about this and realize there are legitimate moral questions about abortion.”

川普總統說美國絕不會成為社會主義國家。民主黨人同意嗎?

President Trump said America will never become a socialist country. Are the Democrats with the president?

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「你認為左派是民主黨的靈魂嗎?」

“Do you think the far-left element of your party speaks to the soul of your party?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「是的。」

Tom: “Yes, I do.  ”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):歡迎收看《世事關心》,我是蕭茗。在美國,我們現在正在進行關於這個國家未來的熱烈討論。邊界安全、墮胎、毒癮、社會主義等等。很多時候,這種爭論被簡化成了黨派之間的口號大戰,這沒有意義。我相信蘇格拉底辯證法,這種正反雙方努力做出最佳論理的方式,是更好的方式,這也可能是我們作為一個國家能在我們面對的問題上得出合理方案的唯一方式。我不是說骯髒的政治不存在。但是當論辯足夠深刻,真相便會顯現。這是蘇格拉底在2500年前做的事。在《世事關心》,我們試圖追尋他的足跡。上一期我們的節目是Tom Del Beccaro的專訪,他是《分裂年代》的作者,是共和黨人。在這一期節目,我採訪了Thomas B. Reston,《民主黨靈魂》一書的作者。

Welcome to <Zooming In>. I’m Simone Gao. In this country, we are having a heated debate over the path to the future: border security, abortion, drug addiction, socialism and so on. Often times, such debates are reduced to short partisan soundbites connected or disrupted by commercial breaks. That is not helpful. I happen to believe that a Socratic dialectic in which both sides strive to bring out the best of their reasoning is a much better way, and perhaps the only way we as a nation can come to sound solutions to the problems we face. I know dirty politics exists beyond the realm of words, but when words go deep, truth also comes out. This is what Socrates did 2500 years ago. At <Zooming In>we try to follow in his footsteps. The last edition of <Zooming In> focused on Thomas Del Beccaro, author of <The Divided Era>, from the Republican side. In this edition, I interviewed Thomas B. Reston, author of “Soul of a Democrat.”

美國人民在墮胎問題上站在哪一邊?

what side are the American people at on abortion?

2017年1月17日,紐約州通過了生育健康法案。法案修改了關於墮胎的法律。只要有一個專業醫師的「合理和合情的判斷」,法案允許墮胎,當「胎兒發育在24週以內,或是胎兒沒有存活可能,或是墮胎對保護病人的生命和健康是必要的。」

On January 17, 2017, New York State passed the reproductive health act. The act amends the public health law regarding abortion. With a medical professional’s“reasonable and good faith judgment”, the Act permits abortions when “the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health.”

但是,紐約州的法律並沒有定義「健康」這個詞。在Doe訴Bolton的案例中,美國的最高法院認為「醫學判斷可以基於多種考量:生理的、情感的、心理的、家庭的、以及女人的年齡,所有和病人的福祉有關的因素,所有這些因素都可能和健康有關。」 這讓人們相信,任何這些因素都可以用作合理的理由,來墮掉一個會動的、有感知的嬰兒。在一個廣播節目當中被問及,當一個女人想要進行妊娠晚期墮胎時,會發生什麼事情?弗吉尼亞州長Ralph Northam說:「如果一個女人在分娩中要求墮胎的話,如果母親和家人要求,這個嬰兒會被先搶救過來,然後母親和醫生再來討論墮胎的問題。」,他還指出,這種手術只會發生在嚴重畸形或無法懷孕的情況下。

However, New York’s new law does not explicitly define “health”. In the Doe v. Bolton case, the U.S. Supreme Court held that“medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all factors : physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age , relevant to the wellbeing of the patient. All these factors may relate to health. This leads people to think any of these factors could be used as a valid reason to abort a moving and feeling baby. When asked on a radio program what happens when a woman is going into labor who desires a third-trimester abortion, Virginia governor Ralph Northam said that in this scenario, “the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.” He also noted that this kind of procedure only occurs in cases of severe deformities or nonviable pregnancy.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「紐約州通過了法律,允許在一定條件下對會動的,有感知的嬰兒進行墮胎。弗吉尼亞州長Ralph Northam說,嬰兒可以在分娩過程中被墮胎。這些你怎麼看?」

Simone: “New York passed a law to allow potential abortion of a moving and feeling baby. Virginia governor Ralph Northam said a baby could be aborted after labor. Where are you in all of these?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「哦,對民主黨來說墮胎這個問題是一個非常困難的問題,一直以來都很難對付。現在我想,由於最高法院大法官的成員構成發生了變化,這個問題又冒出來了。在這個國家,現在很多人都相信最高法院或許真的會推翻『羅訴韋德案』。這是一個由國家最高法院做出的、使整個美國墮胎合法化的判決。在我看來,最高法院是不可能推翻自己之前做出的墮胎合法化裁決的。我認為這個國家大部分人希望保留墮胎權,但是他們可能希望對適用墮胎的情形做出限制,而且是非常輕微的那種限制。但是由於爭論的雙方更擔心最高法院會廢除『羅訴韋德案』,所以,我認為無論是反對墮胎的保守黨人,還是贊成繼續保留墮胎權利的自由主義者,他們都希望在自己政治上占多數的州,推動立法機構要麼頒佈更嚴格的墮胎法案,要麼頒佈比『羅訴韋德案』更松的墮胎法案。因此現在的美國,關於這一話題你會看到必將掀起新一輪的大辯論。」

Thomas Reston: “Well, this question of abortion is a very difficult one for the Democratic Party. It has always been a difficult question for the Democrats to come to grips with. And I think it is now reviving again because of the change in the composition of the justices on the Supreme Court. There are many people in this country who now believe that the Supreme Court might actually overturn Roe vs. Wade, which is the national Supreme Court decision which legalized abortion throughout the United States. In my judgment, I think it’s unlikely that the Supreme Court is going to overturn its precedent legalizing abortion. I think most people in this country want to keep abortion rights, but they might want to cut back on the circumstances where abortions are available, ever so slightly. But as people on both sides of this debate become more afraid that the Supreme Court will do away with Roe vs. Wade,  I think both the conservatives who are against abortion and the liberals who favor continued abortion rights in each of the states where they have the political majority, they are trying to get the state legislatures to either enact more restrictive abortion laws or less restrictive abortion laws than Roe vs. Wade might have allowed. And therefore, I think you’re going to have a renewed debate about it in the United States now.”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「墮胎對我來說不單單是政治問題。所以我想知道人們到底對墮胎有什麼感覺。你是否認為未出生的嬰兒也有生命權?我是說不可剝奪的生命權?」

“ Abortion to me goes beyond politics. I wonder how people really feel about it. Do you believe an unborn baby has the right to life? I mean, an unalienable right to life?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「 你知道,我覺得人們被這個問題困擾著。圍繞這一話題,方方面面的人士,在他們內心隱秘的深處都被這個問題困擾著。我想你會發現各種各樣奇奇怪怪的投票結果。例如,我曾看到有投票結果顯示,在美國所有社區中拉美人是最反對墮胎的。然而,統計表明在我們的少數族裔中,拉美人社區是採用墮胎最多的。所以,我覺得這個問題究竟是道德還是不道德,在美國,每個人的內心深處是非常掙紮的。要解決這個問題,我認為所有美國人對於自己對立面的人都應該試圖去理解,更多的同情,而不能朝對方大喊大叫,什麼難聽說什麼,那樣實質上會讓大家每一個人都陷入其中,且越陷越深。」

Thomas Reston: I think—you know, I think people are troubled by this. I think people on all sides of this debate, in the privacy of their own hearts, are troubled by it. And I think you find all kinds of odd polling results about it. For instance, I’ve seen polling figures that indicate that, of all the communities in the United States, Latinos are the most opposed to abortion. And yet the statistics show that the Latino community in this country is the heaviest user of abortions of any of our ethnic communities. So I think there’s a lot of deep grappling going on among individual Americans about the morality of this question. And I think in trying to reach a resolution to it, I think all Americans should be trying to understand and be more sympathetic to those on the opposite side of this debate from them rather than snarling at them and calling them names and essentially making everybody dig in even more than they’re already dug in.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「我同意,我們應該聽聽兩邊的意見。但是對於每一個個體,當需要做出決定時,你沒辦法接納兩邊的意見。所以這就變成了你是否認為母親選擇自己怎麽生活的權利高於嬰兒生存的權利。哪一個在道德上更重要呢?」

Simone: “I agree, we need to listen to both sides. But for each individual, when a decision needs to be made, you can’t accommodate both sides. So it comes down to whether you think mother’s right to choose how to live her life is more important than the babies’ right to live. which one of the two is a moral imperative? ”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「你看,這就是爭論的問題。爭論的兩邊都有強勢的道德理由:未出生的小孩的權利,和母親選擇要不要把孩子生下來的權利。這是一個關乎衝突雙方個人權利的問題。 」

Thomas Reston: “Well, you see, this is the problem with the debate. And I’m not—this—both of these sides of the debate have a strong moral claim: the right of the unborn child and the right of the mother to decide whether she wants to carry the baby through or not. It really gets down to the rights of individuals that come into conflict.”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「當你要做出選擇時,哪一方的意見更有道德約束力?」

Simone: “When you have to choose, which one is imperative?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「說到美國人現在的意見,我認為絕大多數民主黨人會說他們相信,在絕大多數情形下,不是所有情形下,當然是在懷孕早期,母親選擇的權利相對更重要。懷孕晚期時候,就是另一個問題了。懷孕晚期的時候人們就越來越難選擇了。我不認為最高法院會推翻對Roe訴Wade一案的判決,但是人們會對這個判決的前途感到不安。我認為民主黨人應該聽聽反對者的意見,認識到關於墮胎有合理的道德考量。」

Thomas Reston: Well, as a matter of where Americans are these days, I think most people in the Democratic Party would say to you that they believe, ultimately, under most circumstances, not all circumstances, but under most circumstances, certainly in the early part of a pregnancy, it is the mother’s right to choose which should predominate over the other side of the debate. Toward the end, I think that’s a different question. It becomes more and more troublesome for people to sort out that question toward the end of a pregnancy. And I don’t think the Supreme Court is going to wind up overturning Roe vs. Wade, but people are uncomfortable with it. And I think Democrats ought to listen to their opponents about this and realize that there are legitimate moral questions about abortion.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):“你認為這個法律會傷害、還是會幫助民主黨?”

Simone: “Do you think this law will hurt or help the Democrats?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我不能回答全國的情況。我認為,人們擔心對Roe訴Wade一案的判決會被推翻。我認為在不同的州,人們已經對此作了準備。如果原判被推翻,在很支持墮胎的州,我認為你會看見規則放寬。在人們很反對墮胎的地方,我認為你可能會看見對墮胎進行更多限制。但是像我說的,我不認為原判會被推翻。我認為昨天首席大法官羅伯茨先生的投票,顯示了他對最高法院推翻這個案子的謹慎態度。」

Thomas Reston:“ I can’t really answer that on a nationwide basis. I think, again, what is happening is people are afraid that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned. And I think in various different states people are trying to get ready for that. And in states which are very pro-abortion, I think you might see a loosening of rules. And in places where people are very much against it, I think you might see a restricting of the rules on abortion if Roe vs. Wade is overturned. But as I say, I don’t believe that it will be overturned. And I think the vote of Mr. Chief Justice Roberts yesterday indicated that he is very cautious about moving the Supreme Court too far in the direction of overturning Roe vs. Wade.”

接下來,美國正在成為社會主義國家嗎?

Coming up, Is America becoming a socialist country?

美國正在成為社會主義國家嗎?

Is America becoming a socialist country?

新當選的眾議院議員亞歷山大·奧卡西奧·柯緹玆,是美國民主社會黨的成員。柯緹茲和拉希達·特拉伊布(Rashida Tlaib)是該團體首次進入國會的成員。她鼓吹一個標榜所謂「進步主義」的政綱,其中包括全民醫保、聯邦就業保障、有保障的家庭休假、建立綠色新政、廢除美國移民和海關執法局、免費公立大學和商貿學校、可再生能源基礎設施項目,以及對1000萬美元以上收入徵收70%的邊際稅率。

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the newly elected representative from New York, is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib are the first two members of the group in Congress. She advocates for a progressive platform that includes Medicare For All, a federal jobs guarantee, guaranteed family leave, establishing a Green New Deal, abolishing U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, free public college and trade school, infrastructure projects for renewable energy, and a 70% marginal tax rate for incomes above $10 million.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「一些新當選的民主黨議員,如亞歷山大·奧卡西歐·柯緹玆,相信社會主義。那麼,您認為民主黨會向左走得更遠嗎?這是在幫助還是在損害民主黨?」

“ Some newly elected democratic house representatives, such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, believes in socialism. So do you think the Democratic Party is moving far left? Is this helping or hurting the democrats?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我認為比起上一代人,民主黨在過去的幾年裡在緩慢地左傾。民主黨基本上從20世紀50年代開始,就被一群中間派政治家所控制。他們對政策和立法的細節非常感興趣。他們在民主黨中占據了很大的優勢。過去的兩三年裡,民主黨的新一代領導者在挑戰這個傳統群體的統治。國會女議員Ocasio-Cortez是左翼人士之一,她說:『看,美國的全國政治辯論已經停滯太久,這個國家的富人和權勢階層一直在從體制中獲利,而美國的一大部分人民被拋在了後面。我們現在必須把注意力轉到如何改變現狀上來。』她是一個很有天賦的政治家。我認為她正在改變這種局面。還有一些比中間派更保守的人,他們現在也在民主黨內站起來說:『我們應堅持保守,民主黨也需要這樣做。』因此,我認為民主黨內部正在進行真正的辯論,這是我們這一代人以來的第一次,她也是這場辯論的一部分。我不認為民主黨會進一步向左發展,我想接下來,我們將在黨內進行一場推心置腹的討論,討論我們自己的定位,以及我們應該對我們的國家向前發展做些什麼。」

Thomas Reston: I think it’s true that the Democratic Party in the last several years has slowly been moving further left than it had been for most of the last generation. I think that the Democratic Party, essentially since the 1950s, has been dominated by a centrist group of politicians who are very interested in the details of policies and the details of legislation. And they have exercised a very heavy dominance over my political party. In the last two or three years, there have arisen new centers in the Democratic Party to challenge the domination of this traditional group. And Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez is one of them on the left who has said, look, the national political debate in the United States for too long has remained stuck in a situation where the rich and powerful in this country have been getting most of the benefits out of the system, and large segments of the American people have been left behind. And we have to turn our attention now to trying to redress this balance. And so I think she is a very gifted politician. And I think she is changing the debate. There are other people, more conservative than the centrists, who are also rising in the Democratic Party now to say wait a minute, we’ve got very conservative instincts which we think also need to be served by the Democratic Party. So I think there’s a real debate that is now emerging inside the Democratic Party for the first time in a generation, and she is part of that debate. I don’t think that it is a foregone conclusion that my party is going to move farther to the left. What’s going to happen is we’re going to have an honest debate inside the party about who we are and what we should be saying about our country moving forward.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「您認為民主黨的最左派代表了黨的靈魂嗎?」

“ Do you think the far-left element of your party speaks to the soul of your party?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「是的。我認為,民主黨在美國歷史上和今天的使命,其實質是為體制外的人士而戰。無論是宗教領域的體制外人士,還是經濟學意義上的弱勢群體,還是因地域、種族或其它原因而被現有體制排除的人士,許多民主黨人都把我們的政治看作是體制外和體制內之爭。我認為你們現在看到的是民主黨內部重新下定決心,再次為各種體制外人士的利益服務。我認為對民主黨來說這十分有益。」

Thomas Reston: Yes, I do. I think that the essence of the mission of the Democratic Party in American history and today is the fight for the outsider. Be it an outsider of religion or an outsider because of economic status or an outsider because of geography or because of race or for whatever reason that many Democrats see our politics as a fight between insiders and outsiders. And I think what you’re seeing now is a renewal of determination inside the Democratic Party to once again serve the interests of all kinds of outsiders. And I think that’s a healthy debate for the party to have.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「您歡迎黨內的極左分子嗎?」

“ And you welcome the far-left element of the party?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我歡迎他們來辯論。我一點也不畏懼辯論。我認為現在是成為這個國家的民主黨人的大好時機,新興的權力鬥爭正在上演,我很有興趣看看他們會怎麼樣。民主黨存在太久了,現如今只是為存在而存在了。我認為他們需要解決美國的根本問題,即公平問題。」

Thomas Reston:“ I welcome the debate. I am not afraid of the debate at all. I think this is a great time to be a Democrat in this country because of these emerging power struggles. And I’m very interested to see how they’re going to turn out. And I think the party has been too long just kind of keeping on keeping on. And I think they need to address these fundamental issues of fairness in America.”

2月5日,川普總統在他的國情咨文演講中說,美國絕不會成為社會主義國家。

On February 5, President Trump pledged in his State of the Union that America will never become a socialist country.

川普(美國總統):「在美國,我們聽到了實行社會主義的聲音。美國是建立在自由和獨立的基礎上的,不是建立在政府強權,統治和控制之上的。我們生來自由,也會保持自由。」

Donald Trump: “Here in the United States, we are alarmed by the new calls to adopt socialism in our country. America was founded on liberty and independence, and not government coercion, domination, and control.   We are born free and we will stay free. ”

觀眾:美國萬歲!美國萬歲!美國萬歲!

AUDIENCE:  USA! USA! USA!

川普(美國總統):「今晚,我們重申,美國絕不會成為社會主義國家。」

THE PRESIDENT:  Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.  

觀眾:美國萬歲!美國萬歲!美國萬歲!

AUDIENCE:  USA! USA! USA!

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「總統說我們永遠不會成為社會主義國家。您同意總統所說的我們永遠不應該是一個社會主義國家嗎?」

“ The president said we will never become a socialist country. Do you agree with the president that we should never become a socialist country?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「是的。我對社會主義的理解是,國家控制經濟,國家控制商業。我反對這樣做。我一直支持資本主義和自由企業。我認為這個國家99.99%的人也會拒絕社會主義。總統在他的國情咨文中提出這個問題是一種廉價的政治伎倆,因為這個國家沒有人想廢除自由企業制度。但我確實認為,撇開這些標簽不談,這個國家可以就公平和經濟展開一場有益的辯論。我認為,在美國,公平對待我們經濟中的所有人,與廢除自由企業制度的這種瘋狂想法是有區別的。」

Thomas Reston: “Yes. My understanding of what socialism is, is a state control of the economy and state control of business. And I don’t—I reject that notion. I have always been for capitalism and free enterprise. I think 99.99 percent of people in this country would reject that premise as well. I regard the president’s raising it in his State of the Union address as a kind of a cheap political trick because there is no one in this country who wants to do away with the free enterprise system. But I do think that—these labels aside—I do think the country could use a good debate about fairness and the economy. I think there is a difference between fairness for all people in our economy in the United States versus this kind of crazy idea of doing away with the free enterprise system.”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「所以您認為我們並沒有在變成一個社會主義國家?」

“ So you do not think we are on track to become a socialist country.”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「沒有,變成社會主義國家就太荒唐了。」

Tom: “No, I don’t. I think that’s ridiculous.”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「您不認為福利國家會導向社會主義國家嗎?」

“ Welfare state is not a warm-up for a socialist country?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「不,我想不是這樣的。我認為這是對事實的一種非常粗俗、簡單化的描述。我們有過福利,從20世紀30年代起,我們就對那些深陷困境的人們提供福利與支持。那是75年前的事了。我們那時就已經有了這樣的制度,在1950年代和1960年代,當時的政府提供更多的福利,當時正值美國自由企業經濟擴張的灰色時期。我不認為照顧那些失業的人有什麼不妥,或社區保證不讓人們陷入困境、不能養活自己,有什麼不妥。我認為這是美國社會應該做的一件事,這與限制人們擁有自己企業的自由無關。」

Thomas Reston: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s also a very crude, simplistic description of what is going on. We’ve had a welfare—we’ve had welfare and state support of those who are in deep trouble in this country ever since the 1930s. That’s 75 years ago. It has—we’ve had that system in place, an even more robust system in the 1950s and ‘60s than we have now of state support for welfare, which coincided with the gray period of economic expansion for free enterprise in this country. I don’t think that because you take care of people who are out of work, because the community expresses its determination to not allow people to step off the last rung of the ladder and fall into an abyss where they can’t support themselves or can’t find enough to eat, I think that is a proper thing for the American community to do. And I think it has nothing to do with restricting people’s freedom to own their own businesses whatsoever.

接下來,這堵牆不道德嗎?

Coming up, Is “The Wall” immoral?

這堵墻不道德嗎?

Is the Wall Immoral?

2月15日,國情咨文演講10天之後,川普總統宣布了南部邊境的國家緊急狀態。他動用了總統行政權,挪用了幾十億美元來建牆。同時,他簽署了一個撥款方案,包括了14億美元的邊境安全資金,足夠建起55英里的邊境柵欄。這個舉動可能會面對法律上的挑戰,在不久的將來法院可能會叫停該計劃。

On February 15, ten days after his State of the Union address, President Trump declared a national emergency on the southern border, tapping into executive powers in a bid to divert billions for border wall construction. At the same time, he signed a funding package that includes just $1.4 billion for border security which is sufficient for building 55 miles of fences. The move is expected to face a legal challenge that could stall the attempt in the courts for the near future.

12月6日,佩洛熙說,總統要求的邊境牆,是不道德的,即使墨西哥政府出錢也是如此。1月3日,在回答記者問題時,她說,邊境牆是不道德的。這不是我們國家應該做的。

On Dec. 6, Nancy Pelosi said that additional barrier construction, as demanded by the president, would be “immoral still,” even if the Mexican government paid for it. On Jan. 3, in responding to reporters, Pelosi said, “A wall is an immorality. It’s not who we are as a nation.”

在國情咨文演講中,總統說,唯一不道德事情,就是政客們什麼都不做,而是繼續允許更多無辜的人成為悲慘的受害者。有非法移民才是不道德的。

In his State of the Union address, the president said “The only thing that is immoral is the politicians to do nothing and continue to allow more innocent people to be so horribly victimized. It is immoral to have the illegal immigrants.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「川普總統在國情諮文中說,把非法移民放進來傷害甚至殺害美國公民是不道德的。南希·佩洛西說建牆是不道德的。您認為究竟哪一邊不道德呢?」

“ In his SOTU address, the President said it is immoral to have the illegal immigrants coming over to kill and harm the American citizens. Nancy Pelosi said it is immoral to build the wall. Which one is immoral to you?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我認為這個問題的整個討論方式都是錯誤的。我想我們得退一步講,那樣再討論美國南部怎樣加強邊界安全,就大不一樣了。如果揪住什麼道德不道德的,相互指責,未必能討論出個所以然來。顯然,讓那些會傷害我們公民的人不合法地進入美國,那是不可接受的。川普總統提出要在美國整個南部邊境建一道牆,我認為這個提議可以說與美國的民族精神大相抵觸。我認為應該折中一下, 政府必須得運轉起來,繼續前行。我不同意總統處理此事的方法,這場辯論主要是由總統,而不是由民主黨人主導。這個問題事關國家利益,總統的處理方式不利於問題的解決。」

Thomas Reston:“ I think the whole way of discussing this problem is wrong. I think we have to step back and have a different kind of discussion about securing our borders on the southern side of the United States. I don’t think we’re necessarily getting anywhere with these charges of immorality back and forth. Obviously, it is unacceptable to have people coming illegally to the United States who harm our citizens. And I believe that the building of the wall, as proposed by President Trump, a complete wall across the southern border across the United States, is also sort of very much against the ethos of the American nation. I think there’s got to be a compromise about this. And the government has to be able to function and move forward. And I think the way the president has framed the debate, and he is by and large frame the national debate more than the democrats are. I think it is a very destructive way to set up a conversation about the health of the nation.  ”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):發起一個關於南部邊境安全問題的對話可能不是建設性的,但是這對話不是川普發起的,是佩洛熙發起的。她首先在去年12月說這個牆是不道德的,在1月又說了一次。然後川普才在2月的國情咨文演講中做出回應。

It might be a destructive way to set up a conversation about the safety of our southern border. But it is not president Trump, but Nancy Pelosi who set up this conversation.  She first characterized the wall as immoral in December last year, and said it again in January. Then President Trump responded in his February State of the Union Address.

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「佩洛熙呢?她發動了這個不道德指控,把牆描述成不道德的。」

“ What about Nancy Pelosi? She started this whole immorality back and forth by describing the wall as immoral. ”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我認為建牆違反了民族精神,這是我描述它的方式。我認為應該就加強邊境安全提出具體建議,而不是使用那些非常具有煽動性的言辭。我認為如果民主黨人簡單的在全國的討論中接受那些現有說法的話,結果不會好的。我們要用自己的方式來主導國家層面的討論。」

Tom Reston:“ I think the wall is unamerican. That’s the way I would describe it. And I think the discussion should be what makes sense on the southern border rather than these very very inflammatory words. It seems to me that if democrats are simply buying into the terms has suggested for the national dialogue, it is not going to turn well for the democrats. We should be using our own terms to try to frame the national discussion. ”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「所以您兩邊都不贊成?」

“ So you disapprove both sides?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主黨的靈魂》作者):「我現在是這麼認為。但是我想,主要是總統決定了國內政治討論的基調。這些天來,我們討論政治的方式更多地受到了總統的影響,而不是民主黨人。」

Thomas Reston:“ I am. But I think the president is largely responsible for the tenor of the domestic political discussion in the United States. He, more than the Democrats, has framed the way we talk about our politics these days.”

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):Reston先生的觀點很有意思。總統本人,尤其是通過他的推特,還有新的堅定的保守派媒體,其規模和影響比起那些左傾的媒體來要小很多。但是,川普仍然堅定不移的在美國甚至國際媒體中扮演推動者的角色。他主導了每一次討論,而反對派的媒體總是在對他做回應。你們怎麼想?請發推特給我@ZoomingInSimone。也可以在我們的臉書頁面或是Youtube頻道Zooming In with Simone Gao上參與我們的討論。下期節目再見

Reston brings up an interesting point. The president himself, especially thorough his tweets, and a newly robust conservative media are dwarfed in size by the left-leaning mainstream media. And yet, Trump remains the unmoved mover in American and even international media. He framed every discussion and the opposition media is always reacting to him. Let me know what you think by tweeting at us at @ZoomingInSimone. You can also join the conversation on our Facebook page and subscribe to our YouTube channel: “Zooming In with Simone Gao” . Goodbye until next time.

End

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Producer:Simone Gao

Writer:Joel Slaughter,   Simone Gao

Editors:Julian Kuo,  Bonnie Yu, Bin Tang,  Melodie Von, York Du

Narrator: Rich Crankshaw

Transcription: Jess Beatty

Translation:Greg Yang,  Xiaofeng Zhang, Bin Tang,  Frank Yue

Cameraman: York  Du

Special Effects:Harrison Sun

Assistant producer: Bin Tang,  Merry Jiang

Feedback:ssgx@ntdtv.com

Host accessories are sponsored by Yun Boutique

New Tang Dynasty Television

《Zooming In》

March,2019

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVWMVBg1RPrDlakdmbyTKBA

https://www.facebook.com/ZoomingInShow/

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