【世事關心】不願面對的邊境真相:專訪布蘭登•達比(第一集)

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【新唐人北京時間2019年07月30日訊】【世事關心】不願面對的邊境真相:專訪布蘭登•達比(第一集):隨著各大媒體對邊境問題的報導越來越熱,我們看到的情況是完整的嗎?真實的嗎?邊境危機已持續數十年,真正的原因是什麼?

他是布賴特巴特邊境和販毒集團紀事的主任,他所告訴我的關於邊境的事情我在媒體聽不到。布蘭登•達比,一個前FBI探員,一位研究墨西哥販毒集團的真正專家,他十年中巡視美墨邊境的九個分區,他對我們的移民系統很沮喪,他所告訴我們的不願面對的真相,可能正是我們需要聽到的。

 

The Inconvenient Truth about the Border – An Interview with Brandon Darby (Part One)

 

隨著各大媒體對邊境問題的報導越來越熱,我們看到的情況是完整的嗎,真實的嗎?

With all the media heat over the border, are we seeing a complete and true picture of the situation?

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「如果我說『別忘了,移民也是人』,所有右派的人馬上會罵我是一個共黨分子。如果我說『我們應該建牆,我們應該打擊墨西哥犯罪集團,加強邊境安全』,那麼所有左派的人都會罵我是納粹。」

Brandon Darby: “if I say something like, you know, remember that migrants are humans too. All of a sudden everyone in the right calls me a commie, you know, and if I say something like, well, we need to build a barrier and we need to go after Mexican cartels and better secure our border, well everyone on the left calls me a Nazi, you know, and it’s like there’s no ability to have a conversation. ”

 

邊境危機已持續數十年,真正的原因是什麼?

The border crisis has been going on for decades, what’s the real reason behind it?

 

蕭茗(Host/ Simone Gao):「我又問了他一個問題:民主黨佔據了國會的大部分席位,在國會搞定此事的機率有多大呢。我問的是修正那項『抓了就放』的法律。他說通過的機率為零。」

Simone: “Okay. So talking about, you know, Tom Cradle, I asked him another question now with the Democrats take the majority of the house, the chances of getting anything fixed in the congress. I mean fixed a catch release law. He said the chances are zero.”

 

布蘭登達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「他也許是對的。」

Brandon: “He’s probably right. ”

 

蕭茗(Host/ Simone Gao):「我采訪了Tom Tancredo。我問他:有百分之多少的共和黨議員反對在邊境建牆,或者不是實心實意的支持建牆,他說75%,這讓我很震驚。」

Simone:“I interviewed Tom Tancredo and I ask him what percentage of Republican congressmen are up opposing or not wholeheartedly supporting building the fence on the border and he said 75%. That was shocking to me.”

 

布蘭登達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「可能是正確的。」

Brandon :“ probably about right.”

 

蕭茗(Host/ Simone Gao):「爲什麼你認為很多共和黨人並非實心實意地支持呢?」

Simone: Why do you think that many Republicans are not supporting these wholeheartedly?

 

布蘭登達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「我覺得共和黨內大部分人不同意在邊境建牆。我覺得很多共和黨金主,尤其是德州的,他們其實是建築商。他們的商業模式就是以剝削外來勞工為基礎的。」

Brandon:“ I again, I think that most people in the Republican party don’t agree with it. I think that a lot of their funders, like especially in Texas, are construction builders who have business models that are based on the exploitation of foreign labor. ”

 

蕭茗(Host/ Simone Gao):他是布賴特巴特邊境和販毒集團紀事的主任,他所告訴我的關於邊境的事情是我在媒體聽不到。布蘭登 ·達比,一個前FBI探員,一位研究墨西哥販毒集團的真正專家。他十年中巡視美墨邊境的九個分區,他對我們的移民系統很沮喪。他還談了不少其它的。他所告訴我們的不願面對的真相可能正是我們需要聽到的。我是蕭茗,您正在觀看《世事關心》。

Host: He is the director of the Breitbart Border and Cartel Chronicle projects, and yet what he told me about the border is not something I expected from this media outlet. Brandon Darby, a former FBI agent and a true expert on Mexican cartels who has spent a decade cruising along  all nine sectors of the US-Mexican border, expressed among other things, frustration with our immigration system. The inconvenient truth he has to tell may be precisely what we need to hear. I am Simone Gao, and you are watching Zooming In.

 

邊境安全嗎?

Is the border safe?

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「當我提到邊境問題的時候,我是整體上講,討論的是整個邊境地區,明白吧?既包括美國這邊,也包括墨西哥那邊。現在我聊解到的情況是,很多民主黨人認為邊境是安全的。但是,如果你說『那墨西哥那邊呢?』他們會說,哦,我談的是美國這邊。後來我就說了,『但你剛才沒這麼講。你說邊境是安全的。』邊境是安全的,邊境真的安全嗎?”(他們說)美國這邊是安全的。這也不是那麼回事。有些地方是安全的,有些地方是不安全的。明白吧?你發現人們談到這個問題的時候,一上來就把它簡單化了,然後只談零散片斷。比如你說,埃爾帕索的犯罪率非常低。但埃爾帕索並不代表美墨邊境的大部分地區,不代表德克薩斯州的大部分邊境,明白嗎?所以人們為了在政治上得分,談到這個問題的時候,把它簡單化了。共和黨人和民主黨人莫不如此。有些人談到治安最差的地方發生的事,然後說整個邊境地區都這樣,但事實並非如此。有些人談到治安最好的地方出現的情況,然後說整個邊境地區都這樣,這也不對。所以,我很高興現在人們開始談論邊界問題,關注邊界問題。對此我非常高興。我認為人們的關注度在增加。不過,我也的確認為人們所接觸到的資訊大部分都是不準確的。」

Brandon: “when I say on the border, I’m speaking holistically, I’m talking about the entire border region, right? It’s composed of the U.S. Side and the Mexican side. You know. What I see right now, is I see a lot of Democrats, saying that the border is safe. And then when you say, ‘What about what’s going on in Mexico?’ They said, well, I was talking about the U.S. Side. And I said, “But you didn’t say that. You said the border is safe. You said the border is safe. Is the border safe?"" Like, well, the US side is safe. It’s like, well, again, that’s not true either. Some places are safe, some places are not safe. Right? But you see people talking about this issue and oversimplifying it and taking out pieces. You say, well, the, the crime right in El Paso is very low. It’s like, but El Paso doesn’t represent the majority of the US Mexico border. It doesn’t represent the majority of the Texas border, you know? So people are talking about, and they’re oversimplifying it to, make their political points. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are doing that. Some people are taking things that happen and the most violent regions and they’re saying that that applies to the entire border, It doesn’t. And some people are taking things that, like the circumstances from the most peaceful regions and saying that applies to the entire border. It doesn’t either. So, so I’m glad that people are talking and focusing on the border. I’m glad people are talking about it. I think that that’s, increasing the amount of attention it receives. But I, I do think that the majority of information people are being exposed to is inaccurate.”

 

德克薩斯州埃爾帕索是該國毒品走私最嚴重的走廊之一,但它卻被認為是一個安全的城市。 這是為什麼?

El Paso, Texas is one of the heaviest drug smuggling corridors in the country, but it is considered a safe city.  Why is that?

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「我認爲華雷斯犯罪集團的特性是,他們非常的專業。他們知道,如果他們的暴力事件蔓延,如果他們的同行在埃爾帕索實施暴力。這會引起更多的媒體關注,並且會導致邊境執法人員的增加,而且這將使他們的毒品進入美國的工作要困難得多。所以他們所做的就是確保他們的人不在美國這邊邊境犯罪。他們的人在美國這邊犯罪,但不是在邊境上。你懂得吧? 他們在(美國)其它城市和內陸城市犯罪。他們在墨西哥犯罪,但在埃爾帕索,他們非常小心地限制他們所做的事情。所以說,『嗯,他們不在美國犯罪。』這就像(他們沒犯罪一樣),然而,那不是真的。他們不在埃爾帕索犯罪,對吧?但在美國其它城市,他們互相攻擊。而且我們看到了這一點,我認為很多社區,就像在芝加哥,與華雷斯(犯罪集團)也有很大關係。海灣販毒集團和齊塔犯罪集團是上面那些販毒集團的不同派系,高級犯罪集團的低等級派系。你知道嗎,它正在美國的城市和街道中猖獗?但是,你知道,美墨邊界大多數犯罪集團都有足夠的理智不在真正的邊界實施犯罪。 」

Brandon:“ I think that the nature of that particular criminal group, the Juarez cartel tends to be very professional. They know that if their violence spills over, that if their counterparts commit violence in El Paso, it’s going to cause, more media attention and it’s gonna cause an increased law enforcement presence on the border and it’s gonna make their job of getting drugs into the U.S. Much more difficult. So what they do is they make sure that their people don’t commit crimes on the US side. Their people commit crimes on the U.S. Side, just not right there on the border. You know ? They’re doing it in other cities and interior cities. They’re doing it in Mexico, but they’re very careful to limit what they do in El Paso. So to say like, “Well, they don’t commit crimes in the U.S." It’s like, well, that’s not true. They don’t commit crimes in El Paso, Right? But the rest of the U.S. is a fair game for them. And we’re seeing that in, I think a lot of our communities, like what we see in Chicago has a lot to do with what’s going on in Juarez. What’s going on between the Gulf cartel and the Zetas are different factions of those cartels and different factions of the senior lower cartel. It’s playing out in our streets and US cities, you know? But it’s just that most of the cartels along the border have enough sense not to commit crimes on the actual border, you know?”

 

如果你關心移民,你怎麼會喜歡邊界牆呢?

If you care about migrants, how could you be in favor of a wall?

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「我真的認為,當我們考慮兩國之間經濟差距、財富的差距、司法制度的差距、和整體腐敗程度的差距,我們保衛海關邊境安全。 我真的認為,建立這些邊境柵欄,移民最後會通過合法的入境口岸,我認為這對他們來說更安全,對我們也更安全。」

Brandon: “I honestly believe that securing our border between ports of entry, when we consider the economic disparity right? And the, the disparity and wealth between the two nations, the disparity in systems of justice, the disparity and overall corruption rates. I really do believe that building those barriers will, ultimately cause migrants to go through, legitimate ports of entry, which I think is a lot safer for them. I think it’s a lot safer for us. ”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「但主要是對他們來說更安全。 真的。 這是件人道主義的事情。 你知道,很多時候,當我和人們討論這個時,他們會說,牆擋不住移民。 牆影響不了人流。牆擋不住人往哪兒走。 他們不會勸阻人們去哪兒。 我說,最近30年,你的新聞報導和你的倡導,美國所有的移民群體。《紐約時報》 甚至說在90年代和2000年代美國建牆時,美國城市中同樣的牆,使得移民去偏遠地區,使得移民死亡,因為他們流入偏遠地區。」

Brandon: “But primarily for them. It’s really safer. It’s the humanitarian thing to do. You know, a lot of times when I’m discussing this with people, they’ll say, well, they don’t really discourage people. They don’t affect traffic patterns. They don’t discourage where people go. And I said, well, the last 30 years of your news coverage and your advocacy, all of the migrant groups in the United States…the New York Times right? Even said that in the 90s and in the 2000’s when the U.S. built walls…those same fences in the cities that it, it caused migrants to go into remote areas and that they were dying because they were being funneled into remote areas. ”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「如果柵欄把人群導向不同方向,那說明柵欄實際上阻礙了人流,對吧? 它們會影響人流模式。 因此,如果我們不僅在這些區域建設欄桿,而且還可以在偏遠地區這些柵欄並在那裡控制機制,例如更好的道路,還有其他一些東西, 需要採取手段,對吧? 才能有效。 但它非常明顯地影響了(人流)模式。 是吧?事情非常清楚,圍欄可以讓大多數人進入入境口岸然後我們可以處理。」

Brandon:“ Well, if the fences were funneling people in a different direction, then that means they actually do impede traffic, right? They do affect the traffic patterns. So if we could not only have those fences in those areas, but also have them in remote areas and have mechanisms there, like better roads and you know, a number of other things, items… Approaches that need to be taken, right? In order for it to be effective. But it very clearly affects patterns. Right? And it can very clearly cause most people to go to a port of entry and then we can deal with it.”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「現在,無論我們是否探討墨西哥政策的停止,還是美國政府當時所採取的任何政策,這都是另一件事。移民和成千上萬的婦女和兒童經過卡特爾領土,那是人們經常因脫水而死亡的偏遠地區。任何了解情況的人都不可能認為這是可以的。這不合理。你知道嗎?我們需要成為一個負責任的國家。我們需要建立這些柵欄,人們要是來的話,我們需要讓他們過境合法的入境口岸,我們可以看到人群,我們可以檢查人群,他們可以獲得醫療服務, 明白嗎?而不是小孩脫水而死…因為需要六個小時他們才能到檢查站,你知道嗎?到那兒他們才可以入境。我們需要讓人們進入這樣的區域,我們準備好所有這些(人員設備)。再說一次,不僅為了我們和我們的安全,也為了他們。」

Brandon:“ Now whether we talk about, you know, the stay in Mexico policy or whatever policy the US government’s engaging in at the time, that’s a whole another discussion. But anyone with any knowledge of the situation couldn’t possibly argue that, it’s okay to have migrants and thousands of women and children going through cartel territory in remote areas where they oftentimes die of dehydration. That’s not reasonable. You know? Like, we need to be a responsible nation. We need to build those barriers and we need to, if we’re going to have people coming, we need to do it through, through legitimate ports of entry where we can see them, we can check them, they have access to health services, you know? instead of little kids dying of dehydration because…And it taking six hours to get them to a checkpoint, you know? To where they can be checked up, checked out. We need to have, we need to have people go into areas where we have all of those things ready. Like again, not only for us and for our safety, But I think for theirs as well.”

 

誰該為邊境危機負責?

Who is responsible for the crisis on the border?

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「民主黨人和部分共和黨人說,『 邊境是安全的,沒有問題。』 或者『就讓它那樣吧。』 一旦人們這些問題,他們就會說,『等一下』。 而現在你開始看到的是(對系統的)徹底檢修。左派不喜歡這個, 但實際上很多都是他們自己的錯,因為他們對問題不聞不問,他們讓它一直這樣惡化。 你知道,他們一直無知,他們視而不見,你知道嗎? 你正在面對這個問題。 真希望越來越多的主流團體和溫和團體能夠參與進來,並就此問題採取行動,並告訴人們實情。Beto O’Rourke這樣的政治家說邊境是安全的,這當然不是真的,希望人們會不再這樣說,不僅因為這樣說,不尊重家庭成員被非法移民殺死的天使家庭,而且這種說法也十分不尊重墨西哥北部的社區。

Brandon:“And I think that that’s what we’re seeing on the border. It’s something very similar. Democrats and some Republicans have said, “Oh, the border’s safe. There’s no problem. Or ‘Just let it be like it is.’ And once people are being educated about those problems, they’re like, ‘Wait a minute.’ And now what you’re starting to see is a sweeping overhaul that the left doesn’t like. But really a lot of it is their own fault because they left it, they let it fester for so long. You know, they stayed ignorant, they turned a blind eye, you know? And you’re starting to see that. So hopefully more and more mainstream groups and moderate groups will get involved and do something about this issue and educate people about the issue. Hopefully politicians like Beto O’Rourke who says the border is safe…that’s obviously not true and hopefully people will stop doing that because not only does it, does it disrespect the angel families, people here who have lost loved ones because of this issue, but it really disrespects communities in northern Mexico.”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「而且,這種說法還不尊重31.9%至80%在移民路上遭受性侵的女性。這樣的事我們可以對那些不尊重的人一直問下去,對吧?真希望這種惡性循環不再發生。 我希望,你知道,越來越多的主流人士會討論這個問題,了解正在發生的事情,並讓政治家採取行動,用政策來解決這個問題。但如果他們繼續無視這個問題,你會看到越來越多的民間武裝。你會看到越來越多私人建造隔離牆。你會看到越來越多的私人努力來做一些事情。因為在這一點上,我們處於一個轉折點。由於邊境問題,太多家庭受到影響。太多的家庭看到他們的親人死於芬太尼過量服用,他們的血管裡射著墨西哥黑色焦油海洛因。無視此事。太多的警察,自己的夥伴,他們的臉被轟爆了,在我們的街道上打這場毒品戰爭,臥底、在惡劣環境中工作。太多人受影響,所以人們想要解決它。而且我認為最終當你消除所有的這些錯誤信息,所有惡化事態的東西,或者把事情說成天下太平,或者把事情說成象是數百名Isis戰士越過邊界,這兩者都不是真的。」

Brandon:“And it also disrespects the 31.9 to 80% of females, migrant females who had been sexually assaulted on that journey. It also, we could go down the line of who that disrespects, right? So hopefully that kind of spin stops happening. Um, and hopefully, uh, you know, more and more mainstream people will discuss this, know what’s going on and get involved and get their politicians to do something, to address it with policy. But if they continue to ignore it, you’re going to see more and more militia. You’re going to see more and more private efforts to build a wall. You’re going to see more and more private efforts to do something about it. Because at this point, we’re at a, we’re at a breaking point. Too many families have been affected because of this issue. Too many families have watched their loved ones die of fentanyl overdoses, shooting Mexican black tar heroin in their veins. you know? to just ignore it. Too many cops have had their partners, have their faces blown off, you know, fighting this drug war on our streets, working undercover and working in vice. Too many people who have been affected and so people want something done. And I think ultimately when you remove all of the disinformation and all of the efforts to spin it and create Potemkin villages or to portray it as like, there’s hundreds of Isis fighters coming across the border, which isn’t true either you know。”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「但實際情況是,通常來說,左派在這個問題上受夠了。 並且右邊有一些人也真是受夠了。雙方都沒有意識到這一點,但實際上,雙方都確實給這個問題帶來傷害。 他們這樣做,實際上傷害了所有被邊境問題影響的人,你知道,你可能獲得一些短期收益,是的,你可能籌集一些資金,讓人們激怒,如果你聲稱一百名ISIS戰士在我們的邊境,但是兩個星期後,當那百名戰士沒有出現時,你知道。 但你聽懂我在說什麼? 比如說你要是這麼幹,你傷害了你的事業,你知道嗎? 在我們更大的邊境地區發生的事,就是美國和墨西哥兩邊,現實情況已經足夠糟糕,我們不必弄得更糟,你知道,我們沒有必要搞得更糟,有些人就這麼幹。 這很不幸。」

Brandon:“There’s no factual reason to believe that like, uh, like that there’s hundreds of Isis fighters coming across the border, our border? I know some groups say this and that’s the, that’s the thing is that, you know, it makes everyone mad at me but, be mad at me. I don’t really care at this point in my life. I, I, I have a nice little home out in the country. I’m raising a child, I have a horse and some cows like I don’t really care, you know, like if people get mad at me so it’d be mad at me. But the truth of the matter is, is that in general, the left is full of it on this issue. And there’s some people on the right who are quite full of it too. And um, and both of them don’t realize it, but they actually, they actually harm, you know, the issue. They actually harm all of the people affected when they pull that, you know, you might get some short term gain and yeah, you might raise some funds and get people riled up If you claim that a hundred isis fighters are at our border, but two weeks later when those hundred isis fighters don’t show up, you know. But you hear what I’m saying? Like you, you hurt you hurt the cause, you know? There’s enough…the reality of what’s occurring in our greater border region, which means the U.S. and Mexico side, the realities are bad enough that we don’t have to make stuff up, you know, and we don’t have to make stuff up and, and some people do. And that’s unfortunate.”

 

A lot of talking, but not a lot of doing.

說的多,做的少

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「我就是,我希望人們確實參與解決此事,我希望此事會對​​政策產生影響,因為到目前為止我還沒有真正看到此事對政策產生重大影響。我見過很多政治家都在空談大事。但真的有用嗎?沒用。牆建了嗎?沒有。柵欄建了嗎?沒有。讓墨西哥更負責任的經濟刺激有嗎?沒有。墨西哥對販毒集團採取措施了嗎?沒有。美國向墨西哥施壓了嗎?沒有。美國國務院,對對毒品集團採取強硬措施並、調子不同了嗎?沒有。我沒有看到任何這些大行動。邊境地區有沒有更多的檢察官?沒有。有沒有更多的移民法官,以便人們可以加快流程?沒有。人們就是『在談』,我說,『他們已經談了很多年了』你知道,我們什麼時候能開始做?沒有開始做,現在和過去一樣。現在和過去一樣,殘酷的現實。就像我看到的那樣,你知道,一個私人團體在邊境上建了半英里牆,這是件象徵性的大事。我認為,一些民主黨人過來認識到現狀,這是件大事。我認為更多的共和黨人開始認識現狀,我認為這是件大事。但它真的影響了政策嗎?一點都沒有,完全沒有。」

Brandon:“I just, I hope that it continues to be a situation where, where people do get involved and I hope that that has an impact on policy because as of yet I haven’t really seen it have a big impact on policy. I’ve seen a lot of politicians bloviate and say big things. But have I really seen a lot of change? No. You know, do I see a wall? No. Do I see a lot of barrier built? No. Do I see more responsible economic stimulus for Mexico? No. Do I see Mexico doing something more about cartels? No. Do I see the U.S. Pressuring Mexico too? No. Do I see the US State Department you know, hitting hard on cartels and taking a different tone? No. I don’t see any of these big things. Do I see more prosecutors along the border regions? No. Do I see more immigration judges so people can have expedited processes? No. People are like “Well they’re talking about it" and I’m like, “They’ve been talking about it for a bunch of years" you know, when are we doing it? I don’t see the…I don’t see the difference right now. All I see is the same old, same old and that, that’s just a brutal reality. Like I do see, you know, a private group built a half mile on the border. That’s a big deal, symbolically I think,. Some Democrats are coming around and acknowledging what’s going on. That’s a big deal. I think More Republicans are starting to acknowledge what’s going on. That’s a big deal, I think. But has it really impacted policy yet? No, not at all. You know, not at all.”

 

蕭茗(Host/Simone Gao):「我采訪了Tom Tancredo。我問他:有百分之多少的共和黨議員反對在邊境建牆,或者不是實心實意的支持建牆,他說75%。這讓我很震驚。」

Simone: “I interviewed Tom Tancredo and I asked him what percentage of Republican congressmen are opposing or not wholeheartedly supporting the building of the border fence and he said 75%. That was shocking to me. ”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「很可能是對的。 我真的不想捲入政治,真的。(有人說) 『你是布賴特巴特網站的編輯』,沒錯。你看看我們的報導,直截了當,報導的都是實情。 我們的確努力與政治保持距離,原因有很多,但我認為湯姆可能是對的。我覺得大部分共和黨議員並不真的支持,我覺得這些共和黨議員很無知,他們沒有搞明白。他們害怕來自左派的社會壓力,因為這些左派控制了絕大部分的文化機構,文化領域絕大部分意見領袖是中間偏左的。我認為,大多數共和黨議員都非常關心這個問題。 一旦他們真的瞭解了實情,我認為他們很可能不會或不再提倡他們今天提倡的那些觀點。 但他們不了解實情,不知道事實。 現在有這樣一個問題,如果我說『別忘了,移民也是人』,所有右翼的人馬上會罵我是一個共黨分子。如果我說『我們應該建牆,我們應該打擊墨西哥犯罪集團,加強邊境安全』,那麼所有左翼的人都會罵我是納粹。你看看,這根本就沒法對話。」

Brandon: “probably about right. I, you know, I really, I really do try to stay out of the politics of it all. I really do. “So you’re Breitbart editor" and I am, and if you look at our coverage, it’s pretty straight. You know, it’s about what’s happening there. We really do try to stay out of the politics, for a number of reasons, you know? But I think Tom’s probably right on that. I think the majority do not really support and I think the majority of them are ignorant. I think they don’t understand. And I think they’re afraid of social pressure that comes from the left who has control over most of the, you know, cultural institutions. Most of the cultural influencers, are left of center. And I think that probably most of them are pretty caring. And if they actually knew the facts, I think they would probably not, not promote what they promote. But they don’t, you know, they don’t know the facts. And that’s one of the problems we have right now is that if I say something like, you know, “Remember that migrants are humans too." All of a sudden everyone in the right calls me a commie, you know, and if I say something like, “Well, we need to build a barrier and we need to go after Mexican cartels and better secure our border," Well everyone on the left calls me a Nazi, you know, and it’s like there’s no ability to have a conversation. ”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「你要麼堅持自己的論點,要麼就不是好人。是吧?這種討論是有害的,對解決問題是有害的。真的對雙方都有害。所以我想湯姆在這點上說的是對的。但是呢,情況真的很糟。 而且大多數人都只是嘴上說說,其實並不往心裏去。因為他們並不明白。他們不明白是因為他們不了解這些資訊。他們不了解這些資訊,是因為人們根本不聽對方在說什麼,甚至搞什麼人身攻擊。」

Brandon:“ You either stick to your side’s talking points or, or you’re something bad, Right? And it’s really detrimental to this discussion and to this issue. It really hurts both sides actually. And so I’d imagine Tom is right when it comes to that, you know? But yeah, it’s a mess. And most people give it lip service and don’t really care because they don’t know and they don’t know because the information isn’t accessible to them and it’s not accessible to them because people are engaging in conversation stoppers and ad Hominem. ”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「而且,就像我剛才說的,如果你認為左派每個人都想摧毀我們這個國家,你就永遠讀不懂左派的觀點;如果你認為右派每個人真的都是納粹,都是種族主義者,你就永遠讀不懂右派的觀點。 如果你永遠都讀不懂他們的觀點,你也就理解不了問題的本質。」

Brandon: “And, like I said, you’re never gonna read a left of center perspective if you think that everyone on the left is trying to destroy our country and you’re never going to read a right of center perspective if you think that it’s really…they’re just Nazis. Who are racist. You’re never gonna read their perspectives and therefore you’re not going to understand an issue.”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「因此,如果有人閱讀我們每天寫的內容,我的大多數團隊成員都在墨西哥,他們甚至不會說英語。 我們用英語發表他們的文字,因為我們聘請了翻譯,並且有雙語編輯,不誇張地說,這事都有一點複雜了。 但如果你不讀布賴特巴特網站對邊界情況和墨西哥毒品集團的報導,那麼現在發生的大部分的事你都不會理解。 還有,如果因為別人告訴你我們是種族主義者,你就信以為真的話,那麼你也就永遠不會讀我們的報道,是吧? 那麼你也就不會知道真相。 我們現在就是面臨這種情況。 所以我認為湯姆說的很可能是對的,這就是為什麼我認為,如果大多數人更知情,在這種情況下他們就會支持在物理上建立起一種屏障。」

Brandon: “So if someone read what we write every day, the majority of my team members are in Mexico. They don’t even speak English. We publish their words in English because we employ translators, you know, and copy editors who are bilingual, which is, is complicated to say the least. But if you don’t read Breitbart’s border and cartel coverage, then you’re not going to understand most of what’s going on. And, and if you think that we’re racist because someone told you we’re racist, well you’re never going to read it, you know? So you’re not going to know. You understand? And that’s kind of where we are right now. So I think, I think what Tom said is probably true and I think that there’s reasons why that’s true that I think most people would support physical barriers under these circumstances if they had more information.”

 

Does the president get accurate information about the border?

總統得到邊境準確信息了嗎?

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「有時候,特朗普談到邊境的事情,談的不對,我認為他不知道實際情況。我認為他下面的人告訴他一些不準確的事情.」

Brandon: “sometimes Trump will say things about that’s happening on the border and it’s just not true. And I don’t think he knows it. You know, I think that people below him are telling him something that isn’t accurate. You know.”

 

蕭茗(Host/ Simone Gao):「比如說,哪些信息不準確?」

Simone: “for example, what is not true?”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「例如,當一家新聞媒體發布了視頻和照片,他們在最初的大篷車移民危機期間,移民坐在聖地亞哥邊境牆上,川普在推特上發佈約20英尺長的一段鐵絲網覆蓋的牆壁圖片 。那是假的新聞,聖地亞哥邊境的牆就是那樣。川普沒去過那兒,有人把照片給川普看, 有人說,這是假的,看,我們的牆是這樣的, 可事實是只有25碼的鐵絲網。 這就是事實,因為我在那裡。」

Brandon: “for example, when a news outlet published video and photos of migrants sitting on the border wall in San Diego during the migrant crisis they have during the initial caravan member, he tweets out a picture of a segment of wall about 20 feet long, covered in barbed wire. That’s fake news. This is what the wall really looks like in San Diego when he’s never been there. Somebody gave that to him. Somebody said, is not true. Look, this is what our wall looks like. Well, the truth was is there was only 25 yards with barbed wire. That was the truth cause I was there. ”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「你知道,他手下的人,必須了解整個事情是怎麼回事, 有邊境巡邏人員,他們幹他們的活。 管理他們的人幹上面的活。 這人的活是上面派的,上面人的活是更上面人派的。更上面的人是再上面人派的,那個人的活是總統派的,明白嗎? 因此,當信息傳遞給美國總統時,整條路線都經歷了這麼多人,他們都是『事不關己,高高掛起』,而且是官官相護。信息經過了這麼多人,川普手裡拿不到準確信息。 他拿到的信息是讓手下不至於出麻煩的信息。這些信息是他手下從自己給他派活的手下那裡得到的。 你看看, 因此,當總統得到這些信息時,這些信息是誤導的,但他不知道, 他被騙了。 這就是我的想法, 唯一管用的。 所以我想這麼多事,我認為有一些機制能夠平衡這一點,我認為國家邊境巡邏委員會是邊境巡邏人員的聯盟,他們和總統有一個非常直接的通路,你知道, 所以他們可以繞過那些當官的,但他們不是每天都談。 不, 就我瞭解(是這樣), 事情就是這樣。」

Brandon: “You know, so somebody in under him, you have to understand how this works. There’s border patrol agents. They’re doing their job. The person who’s managing them is probably doing their job above that person. That person got a job because the person above it gave it to him and that person got a job because the person above them gave it to them and that person got a job because the president appointed him, you understand? Or her. So the entire line, by the time information reaches the president of the United States, it’s gone through so many people who are covering their own ass, you know, and who are political appointees are trying to be or are appointed by a political appointee.It’s gone through so many people that he’s not getting accurate information. He is getting the information that covers the person below him and they’re getting the information from their ally who they put into job below them. You see. So when, when the president did that, it was misleading, but he didn’t know it. He was being lied to. And that’s what I think. And the only thing that makes sense. Um, so I think that happens a lot, you know, and I think there are some mechanisms in place that can, can balance that out. Like I, I think the National Border Patrol Council, which is the Union for the agents, they have a pretty direct line to the president, you know, um, and so they can kind of go around all the political appointees and, you know, but I don’t think that they’re talking every day. No. Um, just from what I would gather. Uh, so that’s, you know, that’s where things are.”

 

布蘭登·達比(布萊恩巴特新聞網/德州經理):「我這樣想,政府中大部分高層官員 基層工作的這些人非常優秀。那些躋身最高層,最最高層的人並不代表基層做工作的人。 明白嗎? 就像,嗯,在比如一個聯邦調查局特工,他想要制止綁匪,他們怎麼做?他們找了這份工作,制止綁架,抓綁匪,救小孩。有一天,他們這群人裏有人想,我不想幹了。我想在華盛頓DC辦公室裏工作,掙更多錢,我想當官,對吧?那些一心想當頭的人,和那些只是想幫助別人的人,是不一樣的。這個你應該知道。有時候,你看到某個身居高位的人也還不錯。但是大多數時候我不這麼認為。我覺得那些希望執掌大權的人,無論在好萊塢,還是在政治圈,這幫人都覺得自己了不起。跟著他們跑,仰慕他們,我是做不來的。沒準我二十多的時候,沒見過世面的時候,可能會這樣;可現在我已經不再是二十多歲的人了。我對這些事情了解的越發透徹。我見得太多了,這幫被政治任命的公職人員們,我是不會因為他們真的激動的。我就這麼說他們。」

Brandon:“ Here’s what I think when it comes to most of the people in our government at the higher levels, right? You have, you have all these really good men and women on the street doing the work, you know, and usually the people who rise to the very top, the very, very top of leadership are not representative of the people on the ground doing the work. You know what I mean? Like, um, take an FBI special agent in the FBI, somebody who wants to stop kidnappers, what do they do? They get a job where they stopped kidnapping and the catch people who kidnap people and they rescue children. And then at some point someone in that group goes, you know what? I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to be in a nice office in DC and make more money and I want to be the boss. Okay? We’re the people who strive to be the boss are not the same as the people who just want to help people. You know, you understand. Occasionally you’ll see someone in upper management is okay, but most of the time I don’t think so. You know, I think generally people who are attracted to have that much power, um, people who are attracted, whether we’re talking about Hollywood or whether we’re talking about politics, I think you’re talking about people with some real issues with narcissism and you know, getting behind one of them and being excited about one of them is not something I do. Maybe when I was in my twenties and I didn’t know better, but I’m not in my twenties anymore. Simone and I know better. You know, I’ve seen it too many times so I don’t get real excited about, um, any political appointees, I’ll put it that way.”

 

==============================

Producer:Simone Gao

Writer:Simone Gao

Editors:Bonnie Yu, Julian Kuo, Bin Tang,

Narrator: Rich Crankshaw

Translation: Chao Yu, Li Chen

Transcription: Jim Battaglini

Cameraman: Wei Wu, Jimmy Xie, York Du

Special Effects:Harrison Sun

Assistant producer:Bin Tang,  Merry Jiang

 

Feedback:ssgx@ntdtv.com

 

New Tang Dynasty Television

Zooming In

July, 2019

 

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