美国大选终场辩论全文之六:有关中国问题

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【新唐人2012年10月24日讯】美大选终场辩论 应对中国问题

SCHIEFFER: Let’s — let’s go to the next segment, because it’s a very important one. It is the rise of China and future challenges for America. I want to just begin this by asking both of you, and Mr. President, you — you go first this time.What do you believe is the greatest future threat to the national security of this country?
希弗:我们先走下一个段落,因为这很重要──中国的崛起与她带给美国的挑战。我想问两位:您认为什么是对美国国家安全最大的挑战?总统先生您先请。

OBAMA: Well, I think it will continue to be terrorist networks. We have to remain vigilant, as I just said. But with respect to China, China is both an adversary, but also a potential partner in the international community if it’s following the rules. So my attitude coming into office was that we are going to insist that China plays by the same rules as everybody else.
欧巴马:我认为恐怖主义网络仍然是最大的威胁,我们必须保持警戒。在中国方面,她同时是我们的对手与潜在的合作伙伴(如果她能遵守规则的话),所以我的执政态度是坚持中国必须遵守大家都遵守的规则。

OBAMA: I know Americans had seen jobs being shipped overseas; businesses and workers not getting a level playing field when it came to trade. And that’s the reason why I set up a trade task force to go after cheaters when it came to international trade. That’s the reason why we have brought more cases against China for violating trade rules than the other — the previous administration had done in two terms. And we’ve won just about every case that we’ve filed, that has been decided.
欧巴马:我知道美国人看到工作机会正流失到海外,企业与工人没有得到一个公平的竞争环境,这就是为何我要设置一个贸易专案小组去追究国际贸易弊端的原因,这也是为什么我们提出针对中国的贸易诉讼案件比前任总统两任任期还多的原因,而我们在这些案子中几乎都赢了。

OBAMA: In fact, just recently steelworkers in Ohio and throughout the Midwest — Pennsylvania — are in a position now to sell steel to China because we won that case. We had a tire case in which they were flooding us with cheap domestic tires — or — or cheap Chinese tires. And we put a stop to it and as a consequence saved jobs throughout America. I have to say that Governor Romney criticized me for being too tough in that tire case; said this wouldn’t be good for American workers and that it would be protectionist.But I tell you, those workers don’t feel that way. They feel as if they had finally an administration who was going to take this issue seriously.
欧巴马:事实上,就因为赢了贸易诉讼,最近俄亥俄州的钢铁工人,从中西部到宾州的钢都可以卖到中国。还有一个轮胎相关的贸易案,中国把低价轮胎卖到市场,我们停止了这种倾销并且增加了许多美国工作机会。我必须要说,罗姆尼州长批评我在那个轮胎案贸易案中太严厉,他说这是保护主义,且这样做对美国工人并没有好处。但是,这些工人可不这么想。他们觉得他们终于有了一个愿意正视这个议题的政府。

OBAMA: Over the long term, in order for us to compete with China, we’ve also got to make sure, though, that we’re taking — taking care of business here at home. If we don’t have the best education system in the world, if we don’t continue to put money into research and technology that will allow us to create great businesses here in the United States, that’s how we lose the competition. And, unfortunately, Governor Romney’s budget and his proposals would not allow us to make those investments.
欧巴马:长期来看,如果要和中国竞争,我们必须确保在国内的企业得到照顾。如果我们没有全世界最好的教育系统,如果我们不持续浥注资源到研究与科技部门,让他们创新商业发展,我们就会失去竞争力。不幸的是,罗姆尼州长的预算和他的提议没办法让我们得到这些投资。

SCHIEFFER: All right.Governor?
希弗:好。州长?

ROMNEY: Well, first of all, it’s not government that makes business successful. It’s not government investments that makes businesses grow and hire people.Let me also note that the greatest threat that the world faces, the greatest national security threat is a nuclear Iran.
罗姆尼:首先,让企业成功的不是政府,政府投资不能让企业成长和雇用职员。我还要指出,世界面临的最大威胁,美国最严重的国家安全威胁是一个拥有核武的伊朗。

ROMNEY: Let’s talk about China. China has an interest that’s very much like ours in one respect, and that is they want a stable world. They don’t want war. They don’t want to see protectionism. They don’t want to see the world break out into — into various forms of chaos, because they have to — they have to manufacture goods and put people to work and they have about 20,000 — 20 million, rather, people coming out of the farms every year coming into the cities, needing jobs. So they want the economy to work and the world to be free and open. And so we can be a partner with China. We don’t have to be an adversary in any way, shape or form. We can work with them, we can collaborate with them, if they’re willing to be responsible.
罗姆尼:我们来说说中国。中国的国家利益一方面和我们非常相像──他们想要一个稳定的世界局势,他们不想要战争,不希望看到保护主义,因为他们必须制造商品、让人们有工作机会,而且他们每年有二千万人从农村到城市来找工作。所以他们需要经济发展和全世界市场的自由开放,所以我们能和中国成为伙伴。没有必要和他们在任何方面都当对手,如果他们愿意负责任,大家可以合作。

ROMNEY: Now, they look at us and say, Is it a good idea to be with America? How strong are we going to be? How strong is our economy? They look at the fact that we owe ’em a trillion dollars and owe other people $16 trillion in total, including that.ROMNEY: They look at our — our decision to — to cut back on our military capabilities. A trillion dollars. The secretary of defense called these trillion dollars of cuts to our military devastating. It’s not my term, it’s the president’s own secretary of defense called these trillion dollars of cuts to our military devastating. It’s not my term, it’s the president’s own Secretary of Defense, called them devastating.They look at America’s commitments around the world and they see what’s happening, and they say, well, OK. Is America going to be strong? And the answer is, yes, if I’m president, America will be very strong.
罗姆尼:现在,中国看着我们说,与美国合作是不是个好主意?我们(美国)的国力有多强大?我们的经济状况有多好?他们也看到我们欠他们一兆美元,而且总共欠其他国家十六兆美元。他们也看着我们的裁减一兆军事预算,国防部长称此军事预算缩编是一个军事危机。这不是我说的,这是总统自己的国防部长称其为危机。他们看着美国在全世界的承诺,他们看到未来的发展,而后他们说,好吧,美国会很强大吗?答案是,会,如果我当总统的话。

ROMNEY: We’ll also make sure that we have trade relations with China that work for us. I’ve watched year in and year out as companies have shut down and people have lost their jobs because China has not played by the same rules, in part by holding down artificially the value of their currency. It holds down the prices of their goods. It means our goods aren’t as competitive and we lose jobs. That’s got to end.
罗姆尼:我们会确保和中国维持一个可运作的贸易关系。这些年来,我看到我们的公司倒闭、人们失业,因为中国没有遵守贸易游戏规则,一方面来说,他们压低人民币汇率,让他们的商品维持在低价,让我们的商品没有竞争力,让我们的民众失业,这点一定得改变。

ROMNEY: They’re making some progress; they need to make more. That’s why on day one, i will label them a currency manipulator, which allows us to apply tariffs where they’re taking jobs. They’re stealing our intellectual property, our patents, our designs, our technology, hacking into our computers, counterfeiting our goods. They have to understand we want to trade with them. We want a world that’s stable. We like free enterprise, but you got to play by the rules.
罗姆尼:中国也持续有一些进步,但他们必须有更大的进步。这就是为何我在一开始就要把中国列为汇率操纵国,这样我们就可以对其课税。他们现在正在使我们的工作流失、偷走我们的智慧财权权、专利、设计、科技,骇进我们的电脑,抄袭我们的商品。他们必须理解我们想要和他们做生意,我们想要一个稳定的世界,我们喜欢自由的企业,但你必须遵守(贸易)游戏规则。

SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor, let me just ask you. If you declare them a currency manipulator on day one, some people are — say you’re just going to start a trade war with China on day one. Is that — isn’t there a risk that that could happen?
希弗:州长,你说你一开始就宣称中国是汇率操纵国,有些人就说你一开始就准备和中国打一场贸易战争,是不是有这种风险?贸易战争可能发生吗?

ROMNEY: Well, they sell us about this much stuff every year, and we sell them about this much stuff every year. So it’s pretty clear who doesn’t want a trade war. And there’s one going on right now, which we don’t know about it. It’s a silent one. And they’re winning.
罗姆尼:他们(中国)每年卖我们这么多东西(比很高的手势),我们每年卖他们这么少东西(比很低的手势),所以很明显,我们不想要贸易战争。而且其实我们现在已经在贸易战争之中了,只是我们不知道而已。这是一场沉默的战争,而他们正在赢得胜利。

ROMNEY: We have enormous trade imbalance with China, and it’s worse this year than last year, and it’s worse last year than the year before. And so we have to understand that we can’t just surrender and lose jobs year in and year out. We have to say to our friend in China, look, you guys are playing aggressively. We understand it. But this can’t keep on going. You can’t keep on holding down the value of your currency, stealing our intellectual property, counterfeiting our products, selling them around the world, even to the United States.
罗姆尼:我们对中国有很大的贸易逆差,而且今年比去年糟,去年又比前年糟,所以我们必须明白,我们不能就此投降,然后年复一年的丢掉工作。我们必须告诉我们在中国的朋友,你们看,你们有侵略性,我们理解这种情况,但是不能一直这么下去。你们不能一直不让你们的货币升值,窃取我们的智慧财产,抄袭我们的商品,然后把这些东西卖往全世界,甚至回销美国。

ROMNEY: I was with one company that makes valves and — and process industries and they said, look, we were — we were having some valves coming in that — that were broken and we had to repair them under warranty and we looked them and — and they had our serial number on them. And then we noticed that there was more than one with that same serial number. They were counterfeit products being made overseas with the same serial number as a U.S. company, the same packaging, these were being sold into our market and around the world as if they were made by the U.S. competitor. This can’t go on.
罗姆尼:我们有一个做阀门和加工工业的公司,他们说,现在有一些坏掉的阀门产品回来,它们在保固期内,得把它们修好,结果一看,它们的产品序号竟然跟我们的产品一样,而且有不只一件产品都有同一个序号,这些是海外的赝品,和美国公司产品序号一样、包装一样,这些盗版商品以美国产品之姿被销回美国、销往全世界,这种事情不能再持续发生了。

ROMNEY: China can be our partner, but — but that doesn’t mean they can just roll all over us and steal our jobs on an unfair basis.
罗姆尼:我想要跟中国保持很好的关系。中国可以作我们的伙伴,但是这不表示他们可以在不公平的贸易基础上踩住我们、偷走我们的工作。

OBAMA: Well, Governor Romney’s right, you are familiar with jobs being shipped overseas because you invested in companies that were shipping jobs overseas.And, you know, that’s — you’re right. I mean that’s how our free market works. But I’ve made a different bet on American workers.
欧巴马:罗姆尼州长是对的,你对流失到海外的工作很熟悉,因为你投资的公司就把工作机会移往海外,你是对的,这就是我们自由市场运作的方式,但是我要在美国工人身上下注。

OBAMA: If we had taken your advice Governor Romney about our auto industry, we’d be buying cars from China instead of selling cars to China.If we take your advice with respect to how we change our tax codes so that companies that earn profits overseas don’t pay U.S. taxes compared to companies here that are paying taxes. Now that’s estimated to create 800,000 jobs, the problem is they won’t be here, they’ll be in places like China.
欧巴马:在汽车工业上,如果我们采用罗姆尼州长的建议,我们就得向中国买车,而不是卖车到中国。如果我们采用你的建议改变税收法规,那么到海外的公司就不用缴税,留在国内的公司却要缴税。据估计,这些公司可以创造八十万个工作机会,但他们不在美国本土,他们离开,到中国等地经营。

OBAMA: And if we’re not making investments in education and basic research, which is not something that the private sector is doing at a sufficient pace right now and has never done, then we will lose the (inaudible) in things like clean energy technology.Now with respect to what we’ve done with China already, U.S. exports have doubled since I came into office, to China and actually currencies are at their most advantageous point for U.S. exporters since 1993.We absolutely have to make more progress and that’s why we’re going to keep on pressing.
欧巴马:如果我们(政府)没有在教育和基础研究上做投资,民间部门也不会对此有足够的投资,那么像清洁能源技术等高科技就不会得到发展。自从我上任以来,我们面临从一九九三年起人民币走贬、对中国出口最有利的时机,但美国对中国的出口仍然成长了一倍。我们当然必须有更多进展,所以这就是为什么我们持续在(对中国)施压。

OBAMA: And when it comes to our military and Chinese security, part of the reason that we were able to pivot to the Asia-Pacific region after having ended the war in Iraq and transitioning out of Afghanistan, is precisely because this is going to be a massive growth area in the future.
欧巴马:当提到我们的国家安全与中国议题,在结束伊拉克反恐战争和从阿富汗撤军后,我们关注的重点来到亚太地区,这是因为这里将会有飞跃性的成长。

OBAMA: And we believe China can be a partner, but we’re also sending a very clear signal that America is a Pacific power; that we are going to have a presence there. We are working with countries in the region to make sure, for example, that ships can pass through; that commerce continues. And we’re organizing trade relations with countries other than China so that China starts feeling more pressure about meeting basic international standards. That’s the kind of leadership we’ve shown in the region. That’s the kind of leadership that we’ll continue to show.
欧巴马:我们相信中国可以成为伙伴,但是我们也释出一个明确的讯息──美国是一个太平洋强权,我们会在这个地区有一席之地。我们和太平洋地区的国家合作,以确保船只能正常航行、贸易能持续进行,同时我们也和中国之外的国家进行经贸往来,让中国有更大的压力去遵守基本的国际行为准则。这是我们一直在这个地区展现的领导力,我们也将持续展现这种领导力。

ROMNEY: I just want to take one of those points, again, attacking me as not talking about an agenda for — for getting more trade and opening up more jobs in this country. But the president mentioned the auto industry and that somehow I would be in favor of jobs being elsewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth.
罗姆尼:我要重申,攻击我个人无法取代议题讨论──我们要怎么让国家有更多的贸易量和工作机会。但是总统先生刚刚提到汽车工业和我会喜欢海外的工作,这个指控实在距离事实太遥远了。

ROMNEY: I’m a son of Detroit. I was born in Detroit. My dad was head of a car company. I like American cars. And I would do nothing to hurt the U.S. auto industry. My plan to get the industry on its feet when it was in real trouble was not to start writing checks. It was President Bush that wrote the first checks. I disagree with that. I said they need — these companies need to go through a managed bankruptcy. And in that process, they can get government help and government guarantees, but they need to go through bankruptcy to get rid of excess cost and the debt burden that they’d — they’d built up. And fortunately…
罗姆尼:我是底特律的子弟,我出生在底特律,我父亲是一家汽车公司的领导人,我爱美国汽车,我不会做任何伤害汽车工业的事。当汽车工业面临难关时,我不会一开始就开支票去振兴汽车工业,是布希总统写了第一张支票,我不同意这个作法。我是说,这些企业需要破产管理。在这个过程中,他们可以得到政府的帮助和政府担保,但他们需要经过破产去摆脱多余的成本和债务。但是不幸的…

(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: Governor Romney, that’s not what you said…
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: Governor Romney, you did not…
ROMNEY: You can take a look at the op-ed…
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: You did not say that you would provide government help.
(交叉对话)欧巴马:罗姆尼州长,这不是你之前说的…
(交叉对话)欧巴马:罗姆尼州长,你没有…
罗姆尼:你可以去看一看…
(交叉对话)欧巴马:你之前没有说会提供政府的帮助。

ROMNEY: I said that we would provide guarantees, and — and that was what was able to allow these companies to go through bankruptcy, to come out of bankruptcy. Under no circumstances would I do anything other than to help this industry get on its feet. And the idea that has been suggested that I would liquidate the industry, of course not. Of course not.
罗姆尼:我说我们会提供担保,让这些公司走出破产。在任何情况下我都会帮助这个工业站稳脚步。而任何说我会放弃这个工业的意见当然都是不正确的。

(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: Let’s check the record.
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: That’s the height of silliness…
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: Let — let — let’s…
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: I have never said I would liquidate…
(CROSSTALK)OBAM: …at the record.
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: …I would liquidate the industry.
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: Governor, the people in Detroit don’t forget.
(交叉对话)欧巴马:我们来看看记录。
(交叉对话)罗姆尼:这是最愚蠢的…
(交叉对话)欧巴马:我们…
(交叉对话)罗姆尼:我从来没说过我会放弃…
(交叉对话)欧巴马:…在记录上…州长,底特律人们不会忘记。

ROMNEY: …and — and that’s why I have the kind of commitment to ensure that our industries in this country can compete and be successful. We in this country can — can compete successfully with anyone in the world, and we’re going to. We’re going to have to have a president, however, that doesn’t think that somehow the government investing in — in car companies like Tesla and — and Fisker, making electric battery cars. This is not research, Mr President, these are the government investing in companies. Investing in Solyndra. This is a company, this isn’t basic research. I — I want to invest in research. Research is great. Providing funding to universities and think tanks is great. But investing in companies? Absolutely not.
罗姆尼:这就是为什么我承诺会保证让我们国家的工业有竞争力并且得到成功。我们国家的人们可以跟世界上的任何人竞争,并且取得成功,我们也正打算这么做。我们会有一个总统,但这不代表政府要自己去投资一些汽车公司,像特斯拉(Tesla)和菲斯科(Fisker),去做电池电动车。这不是研究,总统先生,这是政府投资私人公司。像投资Solyndr公司(美国政府最大的清净科技投资之一),这是一家私人公司,这不是基础研究。我想要在研究上投资,研究很棒,提供资金给大学和智库很棒,但是投资私人公司?绝对不对。

(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: Governor?
ROMNEY: That’s the wrong way to go.
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: The fact of the matter is…
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: I’m still speaking. So I want to make sure that we make — we make America more competitive.
OBAMA: Yeah.
ROMNEY: And that we do those things that make America the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs, innovators, businesses to grow. But you’re investing in companies doesn’t do that. In fact it makes it less likely for them to come here…
OBAMA: Governor?
ROMNEY: …because the private sector’s not going to invest in a…
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: I’m — I’m — I’m happy.
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: …company…
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: …to respond to you…
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: …if — if you’re…
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: …you’ve had the floor for a while.
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: …get someone else’s.
OBAMA: The — look, I think anybody out there can check the record. Governor Romney, you keep on trying to, you know airbrush history here. You were very clear that you would not provide, government assistance to the U.S. auto companies, even if they went through bankruptcy. You said that they could get it in the private marketplace. That wasn’t true. They would have gone through a…
(CROSSTALK)
(交叉对话)欧巴马:州长?
(交叉对话)罗姆尼:这是不正确的作法。
(交叉对话)欧巴马:事实上是…
(交叉对话)罗姆尼:我还在说话,我想要确保美国更具竞争力。
罗姆尼:我们做这些事情,让美国成为全世界对企业家、创新者、成长中的企业最有吸引力的地方。但是你正在投资不是这样的公司。事实上,这让他们更不可能…
欧巴马:州长…
罗姆尼:事实上,民间部门不会投资这样的公司…
(交叉对话)欧巴马:是。我很高兴的回答你…你说。
欧巴马:任何人都可以查看这个记录。罗姆尼州长,你不断尝试…你知道喷枪的历史。事实很清楚,你不会提供政府援助给美国汽车公司,即使他们已经历破产。你说他们可以在私人市场得到资金。这是不正确的。他们正在经历一个…

(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: …you’re wrong.
(CROSSTALK)OBAMA: No, I am not wrong. I am not wrong.
(CROSSTALK)ROMNEY: People can look it up, you’re right.
OBAMA: People will look it up.
ROMNEY: Good.
(交叉对话)罗姆尼:你错了…
(交叉对话)欧巴马:不,我没错…
(交叉对话)罗姆尼:人们会看记录,(在这点)你是对的。
欧巴马:人们会看记录。
罗姆尼:很好。

OBAMA: But more importantly it is true that in order for us to be competitive, we’re going to have to make some smart choices right now. Cutting our education budget, that’s not a smart choice. That will not help us compete with China. Cutting our investments in research and technology, that’s not a smart choice. That will not help us compete with China. Bringing down our deficit by adding $7 trillion of tax cuts and military spending that our military is not asking for, before we even get to the debt that we currently have, that is not going to make us more competitive. Those are the kinds of choices that the American people face right now. Having a tax code that rewards companies that are shipping jobs overseas instead of companies that are investing here in the United States, that will not make us more competitive.And the one thing that I’m absolutely clear about is that after a decade in which we saw drift, jobs being shipped overseas, nobody championing American workers and American businesses, we’ve now begun to make some real progress. What we can’t do is go back to the same policies that got us into such difficulty in the first place. That’s why we have to move forward and not go back.
欧巴马:但是更重要的是,为了让我们有竞争力,我们现在需要做一些明智的选择。缩减教育预算,不是个聪明的选择,这对我们与中国竞争没有帮助。缩减研究与科技投资预算,不是个聪明的选择,对我们与中国竞争也没有帮助。减税7兆美元以降低赤字,和在我们还没有解决债务前、在军方没有要求之下增加军费开支,不会使我们更有竞争力。这是美国人民现在面对的选择,去支持一种税制,让把工作转移到海外的公司得利,而非使在国内投资的公司得利,不会使我们更有竞争力。还有一件事我很确定,在十年的漂泊之后,工作机会转往海外,没有人捍卫美国工人和美国企业,我们现在已经开始有一些真正的进展。我们不能回到让我们陷入困难的相同的政策路线。这就是为什么我们必须向前走,而不是走回头路。

ROMNEY: I couldn’t agree more about going forward, but I certainly don’t want to go back to the policies of the last four years. The policies of the last four years have seen incomes in America decline every year for middle income families, now down $4,300 during your term. Twenty-three million Americans still struggling to find a good job.When you came to office 32 million people on food stamps. Today, 47 million people on food stamps. When you came to office, just over $10 trillion in debt, now $16 trillion in debt. It hasn’t worked. You said by now we’d be at 5.4 percent unemployment. We’re 9 million jobs short of that. I’ve met some of those people. I’ve met them in Appleton, Wisconsin. I met a young woman in — in Philadelphia who’s coming out of — out of college, can’t find work. I’ve been — Ann was with someone just the other day that was just weeping about not being able to get work. It’s just a tragedy in a nation so prosperous as ours, that the last four years have been so hard. And that’s why it’s so critical, that we make America once again the most attractive place in the world to start businesses, to build jobs, to grow the economy. And that’s not going to happen by just hiring teachers. Look, I love to — I love teachers, and I’m happy to have states and communities that want to hire teachers do that. By the way, I don’t like to have the federal government start pushing its weight deeper and deeper into our schools. Let the states and localities do that. I was a governor. The federal government didn’t hire our teachers.ROMNEY: But I love teachers. But I want to get our private sector growing and I know how to do it.
罗姆尼:我太同意“向前走”了,毫无疑问,我不想走回过去四年的政策路线。过去四年的政策让美国中产阶级家庭的收入每年不断减少,现在,在你的任期里,(他们)已经少了4300美元。二千三百万美国人还在为找到好工作挣扎。你一开始上台的时候,有三千二百万人在领食品券,现在,四千七百万人领食品券。你一开始上台的时候,我们有十兆多的国债,现在,国债有十六兆,这个政策并不成功。你说现在我们有百分之五点四的失业率,事实上我们有九百万人没有工作。我遇到过这些人们,我在威斯康辛州的阿普尔顿遇到一位年轻女子,她来自费城,从大学毕业却找不到工作。我遇到…几天前安遇到人们对她哭诉没办法找到工作,在一个像我们这么繁荣的国家里,过去四年却过得这么艰难,这是个悲剧。这就是为什么这件事这么重要,我们要让美国再次变成全世界更吸引人的地方,人们来这里创业、创造工作、发展经济。要达到这点,只雇用老师是不行的。我爱老师们,而且看到各州和社区要雇用老师我也很高兴。顺带一提,我不喜欢联邦政府不断干涉我们的学校,(应该)让各州和地方做这件事情。我以前是一个州长,联邦政府没有雇用我们这儿的老师。但我爱老师。但我要让我们的民间部门成长,我知道怎么做。

SCHIEFFER: I think we all love teachers.(LAUGHTER)
希弗:我们都爱老师们。(笑)

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