【世事关心】不愿面对的边境真相:专访布兰登•达比(第一集)

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【新唐人北京时间2019年07月30日讯】【世事关心】不愿面对的边境真相:专访布兰登•达比(第一集):随着各大媒体对边境问题的报导越来越热,我们看到的情况是完整的吗?真实的吗?边境危机已持续数十年,真正的原因是什么?

他是布赖特巴特边境和贩毒集团纪事的主任,他所告诉我的关于边境的事情我在媒体听不到。布兰登•达比,一个前FBI探员,一位研究墨西哥贩毒集团的真正专家,他十年中巡视美墨边境的九个分区,他对我们的移民系统很沮丧,他所告诉我们的不愿面对的真相,可能正是我们需要听到的。

 

The Inconvenient Truth about the Border – An Interview with Brandon Darby (Part One)

 

随着各大媒体对边境问题的报导越来越热,我们看到的情况是完整的吗,真实的吗?

With all the media heat over the border, are we seeing a complete and true picture of the situation?

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“如果我说‘别忘了,移民也是人’,所有右派的人马上会骂我是一个共党分子。如果我说‘我们应该建墙,我们应该打击墨西哥犯罪集团,加强边境安全’,那么所有左派的人都会骂我是纳粹。”

Brandon Darby: “if I say something like, you know, remember that migrants are humans too. All of a sudden everyone in the right calls me a commie, you know, and if I say something like, well, we need to build a barrier and we need to go after Mexican cartels and better secure our border, well everyone on the left calls me a Nazi, you know, and it’s like there’s no ability to have a conversation. ”

 

边境危机已持续数十年,真正的原因是什么?

The border crisis has been going on for decades, what’s the real reason behind it?

 

萧茗(Host/ Simone Gao):“我又问了他一个问题:民主党占据了国会的大部分席位,在国会搞定此事的概率有多大呢。我问的是修正那项‘抓了就放’的法律。他说通过的概率为零。”

Simone: “Okay. So talking about, you know, Tom Cradle, I asked him another question now with the Democrats take the majority of the house, the chances of getting anything fixed in the congress. I mean fixed a catch release law. He said the chances are zero.”

 

布兰登达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“他也许是对的。”

Brandon: “He’s probably right. ”

 

萧茗(Host/ Simone Gao):“我采访了Tom Tancredo。我问他:有百分之多少的共和党议员反对在边境建墙,或者不是实心实意的支持建墙,他说75%,这让我很震惊。”

Simone:“I interviewed Tom Tancredo and I ask him what percentage of Republican congressmen are up opposing or not wholeheartedly supporting building the fence on the border and he said 75%. That was shocking to me.”

 

布兰登达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“可能是正确的。”

Brandon :“ probably about right.”

 

萧茗(Host/ Simone Gao):“为什么你认为很多共和党人并非实心实意地支持呢?”

Simone: Why do you think that many Republicans are not supporting these wholeheartedly?

 

布兰登达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“我觉得共和党内大部分人不同意在边境建墙。我觉得很多共和党金主,尤其是德州的,他们其实是建筑商。他们的商业模式就是以剥削外来劳工为基础的。”

Brandon:“ I again, I think that most people in the Republican party don’t agree with it. I think that a lot of their funders, like especially in Texas, are construction builders who have business models that are based on the exploitation of foreign labor. ”

 

萧茗(Host/ Simone Gao):他是布赖特巴特边境和贩毒集团纪事的主任,他所告诉我的关于边境的事情是我在媒体听不到。布兰登 ·达比,一个前FBI探员,一位研究墨西哥贩毒集团的真正专家。他十年中巡视美墨边境的九个分区,他对我们的移民系统很沮丧。他还谈了不少其它的。他所告诉我们的不愿面对的真相可能正是我们需要听到的。我是萧茗,您正在观看《世事关心》。

Host: He is the director of the Breitbart Border and Cartel Chronicle projects, and yet what he told me about the border is not something I expected from this media outlet. Brandon Darby, a former FBI agent and a true expert on Mexican cartels who has spent a decade cruising along  all nine sectors of the US-Mexican border, expressed among other things, frustration with our immigration system. The inconvenient truth he has to tell may be precisely what we need to hear. I am Simone Gao, and you are watching Zooming In.

 

边境安全吗?

Is the border safe?

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“当我提到边境问题的时候,我是整体上讲,讨论的是整个边境地区,明白吧?既包括美国这边,也包括墨西哥那边。现在我聊解到的情况是,很多民主党人认为边境是安全的。但是,如果你说‘那墨西哥那边呢?’他们会说,哦,我谈的是美国这边。后来我就说了,‘但你刚才没这么讲。你说边境是安全的。’边境是安全的,边境真的安全吗?”(他们说)美国这边是安全的。这也不是那么回事。有些地方是安全的,有些地方是不安全的。明白吧?你发现人们谈到这个问题的时候,一上来就把它简单化了,然后只谈零散片断。比如你说,埃尔帕索的犯罪率非常低。但埃尔帕索并不代表美墨边境的大部分地区,不代表德克萨斯州的大部分边境,明白吗?所以人们为了在政治上得分,谈到这个问题的时候,把它简单化了。共和党人和民主党人莫不如此。有些人谈到治安最差的地方发生的事,然后说整个边境地区都这样,但事实并非如此。有些人谈到治安最好的地方出现的情况,然后说整个边境地区都这样,这也不对。所以,我很高兴现在人们开始谈论边界问题,关注边界问题。对此我非常高兴。我认为人们的关注度在增加。不过,我也的确认为人们所接触到的资讯大部分都是不准确的。”

Brandon: “when I say on the border, I’m speaking holistically, I’m talking about the entire border region, right? It’s composed of the U.S. Side and the Mexican side. You know. What I see right now, is I see a lot of Democrats, saying that the border is safe. And then when you say, ‘What about what’s going on in Mexico?’ They said, well, I was talking about the U.S. Side. And I said, “But you didn’t say that. You said the border is safe. You said the border is safe. Is the border safe?"" Like, well, the US side is safe. It’s like, well, again, that’s not true either. Some places are safe, some places are not safe. Right? But you see people talking about this issue and oversimplifying it and taking out pieces. You say, well, the, the crime right in El Paso is very low. It’s like, but El Paso doesn’t represent the majority of the US Mexico border. It doesn’t represent the majority of the Texas border, you know? So people are talking about, and they’re oversimplifying it to, make their political points. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are doing that. Some people are taking things that happen and the most violent regions and they’re saying that that applies to the entire border, It doesn’t. And some people are taking things that, like the circumstances from the most peaceful regions and saying that applies to the entire border. It doesn’t either. So, so I’m glad that people are talking and focusing on the border. I’m glad people are talking about it. I think that that’s, increasing the amount of attention it receives. But I, I do think that the majority of information people are being exposed to is inaccurate.”

 

德克萨斯州埃尔帕索是该国毒品走私最严重的走廊之一,但它却被认为是一个安全的城市。 这是为什么?

El Paso, Texas is one of the heaviest drug smuggling corridors in the country, but it is considered a safe city.  Why is that?

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“我认为华雷斯犯罪集团的特性是,他们非常的专业。他们知道,如果他们的暴力事件蔓延,如果他们的同行在埃尔帕索实施暴力。这会引起更多的媒体关注,并且会导致边境执法人员的增加,而且这将使他们的毒品进入美国的工作要困难得多。所以他们所做的就是确保他们的人不在美国这边边境犯罪。他们的人在美国这边犯罪,但不是在边境上。你懂得吧? 他们在(美国)其它城市和内陆城市犯罪。他们在墨西哥犯罪,但在埃尔帕索,他们非常小心地限制他们所做的事情。所以说,‘嗯,他们不在美国犯罪。’这就像(他们没犯罪一样),然而,那不是真的。他们不在埃尔帕索犯罪,对吧?但在美国其它城市,他们互相攻击。而且我们看到了这一点,我认为很多社区,就像在芝加哥,与华雷斯(犯罪集团)也有很大关系。海湾贩毒集团和齐塔犯罪集团是上面那些贩毒集团的不同派系,高级犯罪集团的低等级派系。你知道吗,它正在美国的城市和街道中猖獗?但是,你知道,美墨边界大多数犯罪集团都有足够的理智不在真正的边界实施犯罪。 ”

Brandon:“ I think that the nature of that particular criminal group, the Juarez cartel tends to be very professional. They know that if their violence spills over, that if their counterparts commit violence in El Paso, it’s going to cause, more media attention and it’s gonna cause an increased law enforcement presence on the border and it’s gonna make their job of getting drugs into the U.S. Much more difficult. So what they do is they make sure that their people don’t commit crimes on the US side. Their people commit crimes on the U.S. Side, just not right there on the border. You know ? They’re doing it in other cities and interior cities. They’re doing it in Mexico, but they’re very careful to limit what they do in El Paso. So to say like, “Well, they don’t commit crimes in the U.S." It’s like, well, that’s not true. They don’t commit crimes in El Paso, Right? But the rest of the U.S. is a fair game for them. And we’re seeing that in, I think a lot of our communities, like what we see in Chicago has a lot to do with what’s going on in Juarez. What’s going on between the Gulf cartel and the Zetas are different factions of those cartels and different factions of the senior lower cartel. It’s playing out in our streets and US cities, you know? But it’s just that most of the cartels along the border have enough sense not to commit crimes on the actual border, you know?”

 

如果你关心移民,你怎么会喜欢边界墙呢?

If you care about migrants, how could you be in favor of a wall?

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“我真的认为,当我们考虑两国之间经济差距、财富的差距、司法制度的差距、和整体腐败程度的差距,我们保卫海关边境安全。 我真的认为,建立这些边境栅栏,移民最后会通过合法的入境口岸,我认为这对他们来说更安全,对我们也更安全。”

Brandon: “I honestly believe that securing our border between ports of entry, when we consider the economic disparity right? And the, the disparity and wealth between the two nations, the disparity in systems of justice, the disparity and overall corruption rates. I really do believe that building those barriers will, ultimately cause migrants to go through, legitimate ports of entry, which I think is a lot safer for them. I think it’s a lot safer for us. ”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“但主要是对他们来说更安全。 真的。 这是件人道主义的事情。 你知道,很多时候,当我和人们讨论这个时,他们会说,墙挡不住移民。 墙影响不了人流。墙挡不住人往哪儿走。 他们不会劝阻人们去哪儿。 我说,最近30年,你的新闻报导和你的倡导,美国所有的移民群体。《纽约时报》 甚至说在90年代和2000年代美国建墙时,美国城市中同样的墙,使得移民去偏远地区,使得移民死亡,因为他们流入偏远地区。”

Brandon: “But primarily for them. It’s really safer. It’s the humanitarian thing to do. You know, a lot of times when I’m discussing this with people, they’ll say, well, they don’t really discourage people. They don’t affect traffic patterns. They don’t discourage where people go. And I said, well, the last 30 years of your news coverage and your advocacy, all of the migrant groups in the United States…the New York Times right? Even said that in the 90s and in the 2000’s when the U.S. built walls…those same fences in the cities that it, it caused migrants to go into remote areas and that they were dying because they were being funneled into remote areas. ”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“如果栅栏把人群导向不同方向,那说明栅栏实际上阻碍了人流,对吧? 它们会影响人流模式。 因此,如果我们不仅在这些区域建设栏杆,而且还可以在偏远地区这些栅栏并在那里控制机制,例如更好的道路,还有其他一些东西, 需要采取手段,对吧? 才能有效。 但它非常明显地影响了(人流)模式。 是吧?事情非常清楚,围栏可以让大多数人进入入境口岸然后我们可以处理。”

Brandon:“ Well, if the fences were funneling people in a different direction, then that means they actually do impede traffic, right? They do affect the traffic patterns. So if we could not only have those fences in those areas, but also have them in remote areas and have mechanisms there, like better roads and you know, a number of other things, items… Approaches that need to be taken, right? In order for it to be effective. But it very clearly affects patterns. Right? And it can very clearly cause most people to go to a port of entry and then we can deal with it.”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“现在,无论我们是否探讨墨西哥政策的停止,还是美国政府当时所采取的任何政策,这都是另一件事。移民和成千上万的妇女和儿童经过卡特尔领土,那是人们经常因脱水而死亡的偏远地区。任何了解情况的人都不可能认为这是可以的。这不合理。你知道吗?我们需要成为一个负责任的国家。我们需要建立这些栅栏,人们要是来的话,我们需要让他们过境合法的入境口岸,我们可以看到人群,我们可以检查人群,他们可以获得医疗服务, 明白吗?而不是小孩脱水而死…因为需要六个小时他们才能到检查站,你知道吗?到那儿他们才可以入境。我们需要让人们进入这样的区域,我们准备好所有这些(人员设备)。再说一次,不仅为了我们和我们的安全,也为了他们。”

Brandon:“ Now whether we talk about, you know, the stay in Mexico policy or whatever policy the US government’s engaging in at the time, that’s a whole another discussion. But anyone with any knowledge of the situation couldn’t possibly argue that, it’s okay to have migrants and thousands of women and children going through cartel territory in remote areas where they oftentimes die of dehydration. That’s not reasonable. You know? Like, we need to be a responsible nation. We need to build those barriers and we need to, if we’re going to have people coming, we need to do it through, through legitimate ports of entry where we can see them, we can check them, they have access to health services, you know? instead of little kids dying of dehydration because…And it taking six hours to get them to a checkpoint, you know? To where they can be checked up, checked out. We need to have, we need to have people go into areas where we have all of those things ready. Like again, not only for us and for our safety, But I think for theirs as well.”

 

谁该为边境危机负责?

Who is responsible for the crisis on the border?

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“民主党人和部分共和党人说,‘ 边境是安全的,没有问题。’ 或者‘就让它那样吧。’ 一旦人们这些问题,他们就会说,‘等一下’。 而现在你开始看到的是(对系统的)彻底检修。左派不喜欢这个, 但实际上很多都是他们自己的错,因为他们对问题不闻不问,他们让它一直这样恶化。 你知道,他们一直无知,他们视而不见,你知道吗? 你正在面对这个问题。 真希望越来越多的主流团体和温和团体能够参与进来,并就此问题采取行动,并告诉人们实情。Beto O’Rourke这样的政治家说边境是安全的,这当然不是真的,希望人们会不再这样说,不仅因为这样说,不尊重家庭成员被非法移民杀死的天使家庭,而且这种说法也十分不尊重墨西哥北部的社区。

Brandon:“And I think that that’s what we’re seeing on the border. It’s something very similar. Democrats and some Republicans have said, “Oh, the border’s safe. There’s no problem. Or ‘Just let it be like it is.’ And once people are being educated about those problems, they’re like, ‘Wait a minute.’ And now what you’re starting to see is a sweeping overhaul that the left doesn’t like. But really a lot of it is their own fault because they left it, they let it fester for so long. You know, they stayed ignorant, they turned a blind eye, you know? And you’re starting to see that. So hopefully more and more mainstream groups and moderate groups will get involved and do something about this issue and educate people about the issue. Hopefully politicians like Beto O’Rourke who says the border is safe…that’s obviously not true and hopefully people will stop doing that because not only does it, does it disrespect the angel families, people here who have lost loved ones because of this issue, but it really disrespects communities in northern Mexico.”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“而且,这种说法还不尊重31.9%至80%在移民路上遭受性侵的女性。这样的事我们可以对那些不尊重的人一直问下去,对吧?真希望这种恶性循环不再发生。 我希望,你知道,越来越多的主流人士会讨论这个问题,了解正在发生的事情,并让政治家采取行动,用政策来解决这个问题。但如果他们继续无视这个问题,你会看到越来越多的民间武装。你会看到越来越多私人建造隔离墙。你会看到越来越多的私人努力来做一些事情。因为在这一点上,我们处于一个转折点。由于边境问题,太多家庭受到影响。太多的家庭看到他们的亲人死于芬太尼过量服用,他们的血管里射着墨西哥黑色焦油海洛因。无视此事。太多的警察,自己的伙伴,他们的脸被轰爆了,在我们的街道上打这场毒品战争,卧底、在恶劣环境中工作。太多人受影响,所以人们想要解决它。而且我认为最终当你消除所有的这些错误信息,所有恶化事态的东西,或者把事情说成天下太平,或者把事情说成象是数百名Isis战士越过边界,这两者都不是真的。”

Brandon:“And it also disrespects the 31.9 to 80% of females, migrant females who had been sexually assaulted on that journey. It also, we could go down the line of who that disrespects, right? So hopefully that kind of spin stops happening. Um, and hopefully, uh, you know, more and more mainstream people will discuss this, know what’s going on and get involved and get their politicians to do something, to address it with policy. But if they continue to ignore it, you’re going to see more and more militia. You’re going to see more and more private efforts to build a wall. You’re going to see more and more private efforts to do something about it. Because at this point, we’re at a, we’re at a breaking point. Too many families have been affected because of this issue. Too many families have watched their loved ones die of fentanyl overdoses, shooting Mexican black tar heroin in their veins. you know? to just ignore it. Too many cops have had their partners, have their faces blown off, you know, fighting this drug war on our streets, working undercover and working in vice. Too many people who have been affected and so people want something done. And I think ultimately when you remove all of the disinformation and all of the efforts to spin it and create Potemkin villages or to portray it as like, there’s hundreds of Isis fighters coming across the border, which isn’t true either you know。”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“但实际情况是,通常来说,左派在这个问题上受够了。 并且右边有一些人也真是受够了。双方都没有意识到这一点,但实际上,双方都确实给这个问题带来伤害。 他们这样做,实际上伤害了所有被边境问题影响的人,你知道,你可能获得一些短期收益,是的,你可能筹集一些资金,让人们激怒,如果你声称一百名ISIS战士在我们的边境,但是两个星期后,当那百名战士没有出现时,你知道。 但你听懂我在说什么? 比如说你要是这么干,你伤害了你的事业,你知道吗? 在我们更大的边境地区发生的事,就是美国和墨西哥两边,现实情况已经足够糟糕,我们不必弄得更糟,你知道,我们没有必要搞得更糟,有些人就这么干。 这很不幸。”

Brandon:“There’s no factual reason to believe that like, uh, like that there’s hundreds of Isis fighters coming across the border, our border? I know some groups say this and that’s the, that’s the thing is that, you know, it makes everyone mad at me but, be mad at me. I don’t really care at this point in my life. I, I, I have a nice little home out in the country. I’m raising a child, I have a horse and some cows like I don’t really care, you know, like if people get mad at me so it’d be mad at me. But the truth of the matter is, is that in general, the left is full of it on this issue. And there’s some people on the right who are quite full of it too. And um, and both of them don’t realize it, but they actually, they actually harm, you know, the issue. They actually harm all of the people affected when they pull that, you know, you might get some short term gain and yeah, you might raise some funds and get people riled up If you claim that a hundred isis fighters are at our border, but two weeks later when those hundred isis fighters don’t show up, you know. But you hear what I’m saying? Like you, you hurt you hurt the cause, you know? There’s enough…the reality of what’s occurring in our greater border region, which means the U.S. and Mexico side, the realities are bad enough that we don’t have to make stuff up, you know, and we don’t have to make stuff up and, and some people do. And that’s unfortunate.”

 

A lot of talking, but not a lot of doing.

说的多,做的少

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“我就是,我希望人们确实参与解决此事,我希望此事会对​​政策产生影响,因为到目前为止我还没有真正看到此事对政策产生重大影响。我见过很多政治家都在空谈大事。但真的有用吗?没用。墙建了吗?没有。栅栏建了吗?没有。让墨西哥更负责任的经济刺激有吗?没有。墨西哥对贩毒集团采取措施了吗?没有。美国向墨西哥施压了吗?没有。美国国务院,对对毒品集团采取强硬措施并、调子不同了吗?没有。我没有看到任何这些大行动。边境地区有没有更多的检察官?没有。有没有更多的移民法官,以便人们可以加快流程?没有。人们就是‘在谈’,我说,‘他们已经谈了很多年了’你知道,我们什么时候能开始做?没有开始做,现在和过去一样。现在和过去一样,残酷的现实。就像我看到的那样,你知道,一个私人团体在边境上建了半英里墙,这是件象征性的大事。我认为,一些民主党人过来认识到现状,这是件大事。我认为更多的共和党人开始认识现状,我认为这是件大事。但它真的影响了政策吗?一点都没有,完全没有。”

Brandon:“I just, I hope that it continues to be a situation where, where people do get involved and I hope that that has an impact on policy because as of yet I haven’t really seen it have a big impact on policy. I’ve seen a lot of politicians bloviate and say big things. But have I really seen a lot of change? No. You know, do I see a wall? No. Do I see a lot of barrier built? No. Do I see more responsible economic stimulus for Mexico? No. Do I see Mexico doing something more about cartels? No. Do I see the U.S. Pressuring Mexico too? No. Do I see the US State Department you know, hitting hard on cartels and taking a different tone? No. I don’t see any of these big things. Do I see more prosecutors along the border regions? No. Do I see more immigration judges so people can have expedited processes? No. People are like “Well they’re talking about it" and I’m like, “They’ve been talking about it for a bunch of years" you know, when are we doing it? I don’t see the…I don’t see the difference right now. All I see is the same old, same old and that, that’s just a brutal reality. Like I do see, you know, a private group built a half mile on the border. That’s a big deal, symbolically I think,. Some Democrats are coming around and acknowledging what’s going on. That’s a big deal. I think More Republicans are starting to acknowledge what’s going on. That’s a big deal, I think. But has it really impacted policy yet? No, not at all. You know, not at all.”

 

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“我采访了Tom Tancredo。我问他:有百分之多少的共和党议员反对在边境建墙,或者不是实心实意的支持建墙,他说75%。这让我很震惊。”

Simone: “I interviewed Tom Tancredo and I asked him what percentage of Republican congressmen are opposing or not wholeheartedly supporting the building of the border fence and he said 75%. That was shocking to me. ”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“很可能是对的。 我真的不想卷入政治,真的。(有人说) ‘你是布赖特巴特网站的编辑’,没错。你看看我们的报导,直截了当,报导的都是实情。 我们的确努力与政治保持距离,原因有很多,但我认为汤姆可能是对的。我觉得大部分共和党议员并不真的支持,我觉得这些共和党议员很无知,他们没有搞明白。他们害怕来自左派的社会压力,因为这些左派控制了绝大部分的文化机构,文化领域绝大部分意见领袖是中间偏左的。我认为,大多数共和党议员都非常关心这个问题。 一旦他们真的了解了实情,我认为他们很可能不会或不再提倡他们今天提倡的那些观点。 但他们不了解实情,不知道事实。 现在有这样一个问题,如果我说‘别忘了,移民也是人’,所有右翼的人马上会骂我是一个共党分子。如果我说‘我们应该建墙,我们应该打击墨西哥犯罪集团,加强边境安全’,那么所有左翼的人都会骂我是纳粹。你看看,这根本就没法对话。”

Brandon: “probably about right. I, you know, I really, I really do try to stay out of the politics of it all. I really do. “So you’re Breitbart editor" and I am, and if you look at our coverage, it’s pretty straight. You know, it’s about what’s happening there. We really do try to stay out of the politics, for a number of reasons, you know? But I think Tom’s probably right on that. I think the majority do not really support and I think the majority of them are ignorant. I think they don’t understand. And I think they’re afraid of social pressure that comes from the left who has control over most of the, you know, cultural institutions. Most of the cultural influencers, are left of center. And I think that probably most of them are pretty caring. And if they actually knew the facts, I think they would probably not, not promote what they promote. But they don’t, you know, they don’t know the facts. And that’s one of the problems we have right now is that if I say something like, you know, “Remember that migrants are humans too." All of a sudden everyone in the right calls me a commie, you know, and if I say something like, “Well, we need to build a barrier and we need to go after Mexican cartels and better secure our border," Well everyone on the left calls me a Nazi, you know, and it’s like there’s no ability to have a conversation. ”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“你要么坚持自己的论点,要么就不是好人。是吧?这种讨论是有害的,对解决问题是有害的。真的对双方都有害。所以我想汤姆在这点上说的是对的。但是呢,情况真的很糟。 而且大多数人都只是嘴上说说,其实并不往心里去。因为他们并不明白。他们不明白是因为他们不了解这些资讯。他们不了解这些资讯,是因为人们根本不听对方在说什么,甚至搞什么人身攻击。”

Brandon:“ You either stick to your side’s talking points or, or you’re something bad, Right? And it’s really detrimental to this discussion and to this issue. It really hurts both sides actually. And so I’d imagine Tom is right when it comes to that, you know? But yeah, it’s a mess. And most people give it lip service and don’t really care because they don’t know and they don’t know because the information isn’t accessible to them and it’s not accessible to them because people are engaging in conversation stoppers and ad Hominem. ”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“而且,就像我刚才说的,如果你认为左派每个人都想摧毁我们这个国家,你就永远读不懂左派的观点;如果你认为右派每个人真的都是纳粹,都是种族主义者,你就永远读不懂右派的观点。 如果你永远都读不懂他们的观点,你也就理解不了问题的本质。”

Brandon: “And, like I said, you’re never gonna read a left of center perspective if you think that everyone on the left is trying to destroy our country and you’re never going to read a right of center perspective if you think that it’s really…they’re just Nazis. Who are racist. You’re never gonna read their perspectives and therefore you’re not going to understand an issue.”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“因此,如果有人阅读我们每天写的内容,我的大多数团队成员都在墨西哥,他们甚至不会说英语。 我们用英语发表他们的文字,因为我们聘请了翻译,并且有双语编辑,不夸张地说,这事都有一点复杂了。 但如果你不读布赖特巴特网站对边界情况和墨西哥毒品集团的报导,那么现在发生的大部分的事你都不会理解。 还有,如果因为别人告诉你我们是种族主义者,你就信以为真的话,那么你也就永远不会读我们的报道,是吧? 那么你也就不会知道真相。 我们现在就是面临这种情况。 所以我认为汤姆说的很可能是对的,这就是为什么我认为,如果大多数人更知情,在这种情况下他们就会支持在物理上建立起一种屏障。”

Brandon: “So if someone read what we write every day, the majority of my team members are in Mexico. They don’t even speak English. We publish their words in English because we employ translators, you know, and copy editors who are bilingual, which is, is complicated to say the least. But if you don’t read Breitbart’s border and cartel coverage, then you’re not going to understand most of what’s going on. And, and if you think that we’re racist because someone told you we’re racist, well you’re never going to read it, you know? So you’re not going to know. You understand? And that’s kind of where we are right now. So I think, I think what Tom said is probably true and I think that there’s reasons why that’s true that I think most people would support physical barriers under these circumstances if they had more information.”

 

Does the president get accurate information about the border?

总统得到边境准确信息了吗?

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“有时候,特朗普谈到边境的事情,谈的不对,我认为他不知道实际情况。我认为他下面的人告诉他一些不准确的事情.”

Brandon: “sometimes Trump will say things about that’s happening on the border and it’s just not true. And I don’t think he knows it. You know, I think that people below him are telling him something that isn’t accurate. You know.”

 

萧茗(Host/ Simone Gao):“比如说,哪些信息不准确?”

Simone: “for example, what is not true?”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“例如,当一家新闻媒体发布了视频和照片,他们在最初的大篷车移民危机期间,移民坐在圣地亚哥边境墙上,川普在推特上发布约20英尺长的一段铁丝网覆盖的墙壁图片 。那是假的新闻,圣地亚哥边境的墙就是那样。川普没去过那儿,有人把照片给川普看, 有人说,这是假的,看,我们的墙是这样的, 可事实是只有25码的铁丝网。 这就是事实,因为我在那里。”

Brandon: “for example, when a news outlet published video and photos of migrants sitting on the border wall in San Diego during the migrant crisis they have during the initial caravan member, he tweets out a picture of a segment of wall about 20 feet long, covered in barbed wire. That’s fake news. This is what the wall really looks like in San Diego when he’s never been there. Somebody gave that to him. Somebody said, is not true. Look, this is what our wall looks like. Well, the truth was is there was only 25 yards with barbed wire. That was the truth cause I was there. ”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“你知道,他手下的人,必须了解整个事情是怎么回事, 有边境巡逻人员,他们干他们的活。 管理他们的人干上面的活。 这人的活是上面派的,上面人的活是更上面人派的。更上面的人是再上面人派的,那个人的活是总统派的,明白吗? 因此,当信息传递给美国总统时,整条路线都经历了这么多人,他们都是‘事不关己,高高挂起’,而且是官官相护。信息经过了这么多人,川普手里拿不到准确信息。 他拿到的信息是让手下不至于出麻烦的信息。这些信息是他手下从自己给他派活的手下那里得到的。 你看看, 因此,当总统得到这些信息时,这些信息是误导的,但他不知道, 他被骗了。 这就是我的想法, 唯一管用的。 所以我想这么多事,我认为有一些机制能够平衡这一点,我认为国家边境巡逻委员会是边境巡逻人员的联盟,他们和总统有一个非常直接的通路,你知道, 所以他们可以绕过那些当官的,但他们不是每天都谈。 不, 就我了解(是这样), 事情就是这样。”

Brandon: “You know, so somebody in under him, you have to understand how this works. There’s border patrol agents. They’re doing their job. The person who’s managing them is probably doing their job above that person. That person got a job because the person above it gave it to him and that person got a job because the person above them gave it to them and that person got a job because the president appointed him, you understand? Or her. So the entire line, by the time information reaches the president of the United States, it’s gone through so many people who are covering their own ass, you know, and who are political appointees are trying to be or are appointed by a political appointee.It’s gone through so many people that he’s not getting accurate information. He is getting the information that covers the person below him and they’re getting the information from their ally who they put into job below them. You see. So when, when the president did that, it was misleading, but he didn’t know it. He was being lied to. And that’s what I think. And the only thing that makes sense. Um, so I think that happens a lot, you know, and I think there are some mechanisms in place that can, can balance that out. Like I, I think the National Border Patrol Council, which is the Union for the agents, they have a pretty direct line to the president, you know, um, and so they can kind of go around all the political appointees and, you know, but I don’t think that they’re talking every day. No. Um, just from what I would gather. Uh, so that’s, you know, that’s where things are.”

 

布兰登·达比(布莱恩巴特新闻网/德州经理):“我这样想,政府中大部分高层官员 基层工作的这些人非常优秀。那些跻身最高层,最最高层的人并不代表基层做工作的人。 明白吗? 就像,嗯,在比如一个联邦调查局特工,他想要制止绑匪,他们怎么做?他们找了这份工作,制止绑架,抓绑匪,救小孩。有一天,他们这群人里有人想,我不想干了。我想在华盛顿DC办公室里工作,挣更多钱,我想当官,对吧?那些一心想当头的人,和那些只是想帮助别人的人,是不一样的。这个你应该知道。有时候,你看到某个身居高位的人也还不错。但是大多数时候我不这么认为。我觉得那些希望执掌大权的人,无论在好莱坞,还是在政治圈,这帮人都觉得自己了不起。跟着他们跑,仰慕他们,我是做不来的。没准我二十多的时候,没见过世面的时候,可能会这样;可现在我已经不再是二十多岁的人了。我对这些事情了解的越发透彻。我见得太多了,这帮被政治任命的公职人员们,我是不会因为他们真的激动的。我就这么说他们。”

Brandon:“ Here’s what I think when it comes to most of the people in our government at the higher levels, right? You have, you have all these really good men and women on the street doing the work, you know, and usually the people who rise to the very top, the very, very top of leadership are not representative of the people on the ground doing the work. You know what I mean? Like, um, take an FBI special agent in the FBI, somebody who wants to stop kidnappers, what do they do? They get a job where they stopped kidnapping and the catch people who kidnap people and they rescue children. And then at some point someone in that group goes, you know what? I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to be in a nice office in DC and make more money and I want to be the boss. Okay? We’re the people who strive to be the boss are not the same as the people who just want to help people. You know, you understand. Occasionally you’ll see someone in upper management is okay, but most of the time I don’t think so. You know, I think generally people who are attracted to have that much power, um, people who are attracted, whether we’re talking about Hollywood or whether we’re talking about politics, I think you’re talking about people with some real issues with narcissism and you know, getting behind one of them and being excited about one of them is not something I do. Maybe when I was in my twenties and I didn’t know better, but I’m not in my twenties anymore. Simone and I know better. You know, I’ve seen it too many times so I don’t get real excited about, um, any political appointees, I’ll put it that way.”

 

==============================

Producer:Simone Gao

Writer:Simone Gao

Editors:Bonnie Yu, Julian Kuo, Bin Tang,

Narrator: Rich Crankshaw

Translation: Chao Yu, Li Chen

Transcription: Jim Battaglini

Cameraman: Wei Wu, Jimmy Xie, York Du

Special Effects:Harrison Sun

Assistant producer:Bin Tang,  Merry Jiang

 

Feedback:ssgx@ntdtv.com

 

New Tang Dynasty Television

Zooming In

July, 2019

 

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